A request was made of me by Marti to withhold posting and I was told by Sonny that Marti Spoke for everyone here. I guess Marti contacted all 25 of you that were on-line, or did you contact her, LOL!!

My posts were characterized as venting. In my over 9 months here, I've seen many people involved in heated discussions that could be characterized as venting; IMHO the thread I posted on, didn't even come close to that. I responded honestly and matter-of-factly to an OT post and I think it's unfortunate that this discussion is being censored.

In my opinion, this isn't the first time Marti has overstepped her role as Moderator here. I always felt that while I disagreed with many here, I was part of a tolerant family that endured my personality because I added some diversity and interest to the forum.

Based on the restrictive nature of Marti's request, I will not post here again.


Hal9000

Hello,

I said to calm down. Please go back to thread and read what Alex posted. I never told you to stop posting to that thread.

Hal, please reconsider. I don't really understand what was so offensive but there sure have been wilder threads here. It seems that some of the people who have gotten into the biggest debates with each other, come back to kid around and laugh together. It's the mix of very different personalities and opinions that make this the best forum I've seen. Who wants to hang around a place where everyone is always in agreement? This has always been a thought provoking environment where ideas are challenged and people learn from each other. I think that you have contributed to that atmosphere.

Take it easy, Marti is only doing what is best for the forum. I bet I am not alone in this opinion.

Remember President Bill? His saying was: "We agree that we disagree". So I think that's cool. When I first started posting, I got off on the wrong foot. I realized my mistake, and everything has been fine ever since.
And for goodness sake, we shouldn't call people names. Don't know if that's why people get upset here, but maybe.
Everybody does have the right to their own opinion. And it should be able to be heard.

Hal, I think you should reconsider. I haven't had many recent opportunities to keep up todate with all the various threads, and I would miss out even more if you withdrew your own inimitable alternative voice. In many ways you have become a character on 911 and it will be the poorer without you.

can someone please direct me to the offending thread, I would like to read it ?

Hal, I read the "offending" post.

Never mind leaving the forum, I would personally condsider emigration if I were you

;-)

Oh, and by the way, you are a breath of fresh air in this forum, especially to us over in Europe who appreciate your holding to the original concept of democracy as a living breathing process made stronger not weaker by argument and discussion. Those who would seek to suppress it are the enemies of democracy and are afraid of democracy. Hang in there Hal :D (you would, if they had their way ;)

JoeP I agree with your sentiment. I've known people who were Trotskyists, Marxists and Fascists but never has anyone ever said they were unpatriotic or that they should find another country to live in. It is unthinkable that would happen. They are all seen as 'patriots' but with a different political view. In a mature democracy alternative views can be welcomed and accommodated.

Up to you, HAL, but I would like you to stick around.

Al, how is Laura?

I just saw in the other thread. Glad to hear she's ok :-)

Hal was not asked to leave. He was asked to calm down and stick to the forum guidelines.

I'm a selfish participant on this site. I add practically nothing to it and take away knowledge about computers that I doubt that I can get anywhere else. I'm entertained by most of the OT threads, but I would hate to see their presence jeopardize what I need most from here, namely HELP WITH MY DAMN COMPUTER!

I believe the moderators have my selfish interests, and others like mine, in mind when they take the actions that precipitated this thread. It doesn't bother me to have a few people leave because they can't have the opportunity to spout out their political views, but I would HATE to see the site go down because it tried to accomodate them.

Dave

Just re-read the post in question,and I can't see anywhere HAL9000 is asked to leave.......and if anything receives a bit of support.

I'm only a new member here and don't know all the characters yet,but HAL9000,I get the feeling you're actually pretty popular here,and will be missed if you do go.

I reckon put it behind you,and get back to giving us all your opinions,I for one tend to agree with you...

Hope you reconsider.

Hal,
Don't leave please, I like reading your posts.

dell 8100 pentium 4 1.3 gigs
windows M.E.
256 mb rdram p.c.800.
nav 2002
internet explorer 6.0
road runner
sygate 5.0 firewall.


DITTO


:-)

Based upon what I have read in your posts that admonish others, it would seem you can't handle being asked to "chill-out". <GRIN>

You have a penchant for deriding others in your posts, so your problem is what?

Skin getting a little too thin, HAL 9000?

Can't handle the heat, bubba, then stay out of the "kitchen".

Grow up!

Leave! You've wasted enough bandwith, IMHO!

Good job Marti! <G>

Hal9000 -

You are over reacting to what Marti said.

Also, you (and the rest of us) are going to have to accept the fact that this is not your web site or server that the web site resides on. Webmasters have sole say-so on what they put on their pages, like or or not, and the final act of editing can be to remove the site. Nothing anyone else can do about that.

I agree, Hal has overreacted, but was his post threatening the continued existence of the forum, I think not, especially when compared to what has been posted in the not too distant past. Eccentricity should be valued, not vilified.

Someone once said "That it takes all types to make the world go around". Nonsense, it doesn't take all types, we just "have" all types.

There is a difference between wanting to genuinely discuss an issue and just wanting to start an argument. A discussion involves both listening and talking whereas arguing is a one sided attempt to push a point of view down someones throat. Arguing stirs up emotions and serves no useful purpose except for the instigator's entertainment.

Now as to whether or not a thread should be controlled (which isn't censorship); I would say that is the prerogative of the person hosting this site. Let's not confuse "privileges" with "rights". Being here in this forum is a privilege and not a right. This means that you have the privalege of being here and the right to leave.

Hal you mentioned how you liked the fact that people here have tolerated and endured you. Where may I ask is your tolerance and endurance for Marti? It seems that you may have this belief "Tolerate and endure me but get in my way and I'll mow you down".

Well said, David.

duane

Way to say it JoeP. Only 2 more countries to go and communism will be stamped out. "What a wonderful world"...Louis Armstrong. :7

goodbye.wav --"This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye."

Listen to it here:

http://www.palantir.net/2001/sounds.html

Hal,
I understand Alex's being fed up with the arguments and all the dissension it causes on the forum; I don't like it either, so I usually avoid posting on the threads of that type that you are involved in. I do read them though Hal, so I would like you to

put me in the column with those who want you to stay. The balance provided by your opinions is needed here.

Mike H.

Hal, you are overreacting. I speak only for myself, and although I often disagree with your positions, they are always civil and well presented. Unfortunately, there are people who post here, that are unable to maintain a civil discourse. Their posted responses to anything controversial that they don't agree with are better suited to a barroom rant, than in a discussion with civilized people. The post by nooyawkah above is a prime example.

It is when the fools step in and begin making personal attacks that things can get ugly, and we as moderators must step in to keep the peace. We don't care what beliefs anyone espouses, as long as the conversation remains civil.

I would never have anything to do with censorship of any discussion that is not illegal or meant to harass, embarrass, or attack others.

I would ask you to stay. I may not always reply to your arguments, I got tired of all night endless debates long ago in college, but I enjoy reading your thoughts.

Very eloquently said Shelly, my position entirely.

Hal,

I think you are overreacting also. There is room here for all types of people and civil discourse about almost any subject.

I guess I disagree with most of the peolple here in that I find your posts to be uncivil at times, incendiary at times, insufferably boring and monotonous, depressingly predictible, way too long, and at times indecipherable. Once I run across a post of yours in an OT thread, I quit reading it and go to another one. But, that may just be me.

Alex is going to moderate his forum as he pleases and there is not much we can do about it. We can accept his guidelines and suggestions or we can vote with our feet and go to some other website. It's that simple.

This thread is the first I've even heard of this guy Hal-whathisname. That's because I generally avoid seeking out such trivia. I latched on to PC911 years ago for its first class computer help and have been a regular here for only that reason. I don't give a hoot what that guy believes in, or doesn't believe in. By the same token, he doesn't give a hoot what I think. Why should either of us care? No reason in the world. Therefore, I've never followed a single thread in which his moniker was posted. That says something. It says that the guy isn't interested in PC911 for the constructive technical assistance that it offers, never posts helpful comments, himself, and confines his activity here to OT matters that would be better debated elsewhere. Is this kind of person a 'fall-out'(or, kicked-out) from some off-the-wall debate club? It has been getting more and more difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff on PC911. It takes some doing to maneuver through the forum and avoid the chaff. I applaud Alex and Marti for their efforts to keep the focus where it belongs on this forum. But that's just MHO.

I wondered just when someone would raise the question the ill- considered and vicious post by nuuyokah.

If ever an official warning was called for, then this was surely it!

However one interprets the Forum Rules, this broke nearly all of them and I for one hope that it is his "LAST POST".

This being America - yes even for we foreign members - you can expect the strongest possible defense of free speech, but at least it should recognized that some outbursts are deliberately structured to cause grave personal offense, hurt and nothing else.

This post, which came less than 12 hours after the "warning" was posted, should have been stamped upon very hard indeed, IMHO that is!!!

I don't want to join in the other argument, but the alleged offender did NOT post in anything like such terms as were used by our friend from NY!!

It seems to me that it's all the inevitable consequence of the proliferation of often contentious or controversial OT postings, but this time there's more than a hint of injustice one feels.

hal--it took me forever to figure out how you p.o'd all these people.I still don't see it.your post was a history lesson---so ehat?

While I agree that Hal can be very sarcastic & condescending at times, as long as he & other members keep any created animosity restricted to the thread(s) in question, there really isn't a problem.

If ever I found myself hesitant to post in a thread where Hal had also posted for fear that he would attack me (however subtle the attack may be) because of a prior argument I'd say we're better off without him. Has anyone here found that to be the case with Hal or any other member for that matter? Those are the immature members we can do without.

Hal, although you probably do feel you're being censured no one has asked you to leave, but they have given you food for thought. But no one changes their stripes overnight, so if anyone else is the sensitive type just stay out of any arguments with Hal. Yeah, yeah, easier said than done. }>

Although posted as response to 0, this is NOT a post targeting Hal, it is a general post.

I would like to comment on only one area of the controversy. I am totally amazed at the philosophy that someone like Alex can set up and maintain something like 911, with all the resources and time that requires... and then be told he has no democratic right to set whatever rules he wishes, as to what may or may not a part of the forum. The idea that anyone should be able to post anything they desire, whether Alex wants it posted or not, as long as they stick OT on it is ludicrous. There is nothing magic about OT, it is still subject to whatever rules Alex wants implemented on the forum. In fact, his exceptional tolerance to some of the OT foolishness on a computer forum has been remarkable... IMHO.

There seems to be some confusion as to 'we live in a free country, and it's supposed to be a democracy(which it's not, it's more of a republic), so therefore I can say or do whatever.....?? Living in a democratic country doesn't mean everything within that country has to be operated in a democratic manner. I live in this country, but if you think I can't and don't make the rules in my home without regard to democratic principles(other than my wife), you might be a candidate to be thrown out of my home, were you to find yourself in it.

The way the internet works, Alex established and maintains this forum... and NO one has any rights here he doesn't wish to grant. Anyone who doesn't wish to abide by whatever rules of posting content or behavior he expects has the right to leave, establish their own site, whatever... but they do NOT have to RIGHT to establish the rules, or even post on this forum.

I have more respect for Ryan and his 411 project than I do for a few of the folks and their philosophies who post some of this stuff. At least he had the guts to recognize his lack of 'democratic rights' on this forum and start his own. Why the heck don't some of the people who disagree so vehemently with whatever principles Alex wants see adhered to here... simply do the same, start your own forum operating under whatever rules you desire, Ryan did.

In other words, the opinions and desires of forum members, or whoever, only have whatever validity, concerning this forum, Alex wishes to grant, IT IS HIS HOUSE. If I should decide I disagree with Alex's desires on this forum to the extent of being unwilling to abide by them, whatever they are, I will simply leave.... I will NOT whine and raise hell about my perceived loss of nonexistent rights on the PC911 computer forum. If Alex ever gets sufficiently fed up with some of the crap, everyone who comes here, for whatever reason, may have to leave anyway.


Randell

GET OVER IT!

HAL, I would have to agree that you would be overreacting in leaving, but I'm not going to beg you to stay or go. I think only you know what's best for you. I occasionally follow your posts in some of the threads, and although I don't necessarily always agree with your thoughts and positions, I appreciate the fact that sometimes you represent the flipside or play devil's advocate, especially in the face of popular opinion. Sometimes my feelings on certain topics are quite strong, and other times my concern can be measured in micro-give-a-shits, and if I feel strongly enough, I might post a response. I'm here primarily for the tech help and info, but I think that the OT adds an interesting side to this forum. You inspire thought, and add a different dimension to many of the threads I've viewed your posts in. You're somewhat of an enigma to me, as I don't often know what angle you are trying to/going to project. Perhaps that's intentional on your part, I don't know. I also don't know if your announcing your intent to leave is a grasp at some sort of acknowledgement or encouragement from others to stay or go, but I think that your descision shouldn't be made in haste. I'm often not impressed with the Soap Opera antics of some of the threads, but I simply excercize my right to move on and read something else. Although I like this forum very much, my life isn't here, and I don't take anything on the web too seriously. Keep a little reality in your life, it's not always about what you can glean from reading, but what you do as well. I remember you once told me that I could have read in place of tinkering with things, but I've done a fair share of reading as well. I tinker, I go fishing, motorcycling, camping, travelling, and I have so many interests that I can't even count them all... kind of an odd duck in interests if you will. I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes if it gets to you, take a break, develop a new interest, do whatever. Keep it real, but don't take it to heart. When you are reading, read some comedy, and don't dwell on the negatives in this world, because we are all often very well aware of the rotten things in this world, but if you spend too much time on it, that's all you will see. Depth isn't always in darkness, it also exists in humor, and simplicity. Whatever you decide, take care.

Giddy

Good post, Giddy. :-)

Why do people feel the need to announce they are leaving?
If one can't stand a little discipline(hope they never join the military or marry someone like my wife)why not just disappear?
LL

don't let the door hit u in the ass............don't tell everyone ur leaving knowing ur going to get alot attention

Look, he'll probably just change his user name and come back as someone else.

You people have no idea what someone like Hal9000 is made of. He's got more balls than that. In fact it takes more balls to put all the cards on the table and see what others think.

Sure, it's easy for people to agree that he should have just gone away without saying anything when you're on the righteous side of the fence. He obviously felt that he wanted to state his reasons. Will you be so agreeable when it's you being oppressed? You'll just go away, and never come back, never even expressing your discontent? If so, then you lose.

>Look, he'll probably just change his user name and come back
>as someone else.

Will you be so agreeable when it's you being oppressed?

The fundamental truth behind all these sorts of discussions.

>Will you be so agreeable when it's you being oppressed?

No one oppressed Hal9000. Not Marti. Not Alex. Absolutely no one.

Jim.

I disagree, he was told to cool it (he wasn't even the problem!) and threatened with deletion.

>No one oppressed Hal9000. Not Marti. Not Alex. Absolutely
>no one.
>
>Jim.

I just re-read the thread in question. Neither Marti nor Alex directed their posts specifically at Hal9000, but rather at the several individuals who were actively participating. He was not singled out, nor even mentioned by name.

That he took it personally and decided to withdraw from further participation is his decision. Even if he had been told directly to "Cool it", it would hardly qualify as oppression - at least by my understanding of the word. He was not directly threatened with having his posts deleted rather the participants were told (Quoting Marti) "Please calm down in here, or this thread will be removed."

Jim.

Don't bother playing word games with me. He was told to cool it, and was told that the thread was going to be deleted if he didn't. I don't care who replied to which post in the thread or whose name was specifically mentioned.

I'm just like Hal, someone who stands up for what they believe in instead of bending over... and I'm not going to put up with that either. Most of the time it is Hal on the defensive, because others won't tolerate his views and he has every right to defend himself. Most flame wars are not actually started by Hal9000, he's a participant just like the rest.

>I don't care who replied to which post in the thread or whose name was specifically mentioned.

I don't care that you don't care. LOL

Jim.

<Why do people feel the need to announce they are leaving?
<

Some people announce their departure for the same reason they post in the first place - to get attention and to make a point.

About half of them come back anyway, maybe more than that if you count those that establish new identities ("chicken return")

Dave

This is how I left anouther computer forum a few months ago. I have winMe.
I clicked favorites, clicked organize favorites, clicked that forums url and then deleted it. That's it. Seems a lot easier to me.

You want discipline, meet MY wife.......

I have to say something about Hal9000. I'm not, ordinarily, in favor of revealing a great deal of personal information on the internet. It's a public place and I'm a private person. I'm going to make an exception because this whole thing about what can be said in an OT thread is becoming such a bone of contention.

Who is Hal9000? Well, he's a complex person. He is passionate, abrasive, confrontational, well read, extremly funny, opinionated, insightful, supportive, a pain in the ass, and a loyal friend. No one knows better than I. I have known him for 18 years. I was his girlfriend and lived with him, at one time.

While Hal has a style that can be attaking, at times, the same can be said for many others in this forum. The funniest part is that those who have been most critical of the heated debates are, often, some of the most combative! Hal could never be accused of that type of hypocricy.

Some of the threads that have been most heated have been some of the longest. It is obvious that many people enjoy challenging each others ideas and opinions. Has it gotten a little personal, at times? Sure, but so what? Many of the members who have argued with each other are friendly in another thread. Most people are mature enough to participate in a good argument and then move on.

I am learning more about the controlling of a forum. Being relatively new to the internet, I thought it was pretty much wide open. Afterall, it is about as public as it gets. I'm a little perplexed about all of the outrage at people speaking their minds in the way they chose. Why are some so worried about how other individuals decide to communicate? That is so politically correct! God forbid that someone might be offended. Isn't the exchange of ideas more important than good etiquite? If someone is uncomfortable with confrontation, they don't have to go down that road.

Some members here have been very critical of those who post, primarily, in OT threads. They have complained that some of us don't offer computer advise. They remind us that this is a computer forum, as if to say that it is that exclusively. They seem to resent the off topic threads while, at the same time, participating in them! I don't post computer advise because I'm not knowledgable enough. I would imagine that other people don't offer advise when they don't have any. Doesn't that make sense? Some of us are not as experienced or talented in these matters so we just GET advise. There are people here that seem angry about that. Why is that? It seems a little elitist to me.

I didn't understand Marti theatening to lock the other thread. What was so bad? Was it that Islam was being discussed? Is religion off limits, again, because it would be politically inccorect to offend someone? I know Ed W was annoyed that the discussion strayed from his original post, but that happens all the time. Conversations take on a life of their own - especially OT. Marti and Alex, maybe you are the ones who should calm down. What are you getting so uptight about? These are adults. They can enter these threads without harm. Nobody needs to be protected from speech. This is America, afterall. We're used to being pissed off at the opinions of others, it's part of our heritage and it's healthy. It gives you thicker skin and reminds you that you are only one voice among many. Alex, you said that this forum is analogous to your living room. Being that this is the internet, it seems more like a public space, to me. Perhaps I am wrong. If it's a private space then maybe there should be an application process, like a country club, so you can screen out the undesirables or those who can't offer computer advise. Having OT threads is an invitation to lively conversation so you may want to think about that. Unlike your living room, anybody can get in here. Maybe you don't want that.

As one who has known Hal9000 for so long, I can say I've had many arguments with him! He's probably gotten me more riled up than anyone I know. In the process, I have learned much about myself. He has contributed a great deal to my life and, I would say, to the interesting atmosphere of this forum. Hal is one of the smartest persons I've ever known. He can't stand injustice and has taken up the fight of the underdog, in this forum, many times. That position has made him unpopular with some and a favorite of others. He has been a noteworthy character in this facinating and quirky community here at PC911. To threaten to silence what makes this place so appealing makes no sense at all. It is the vast variety of personalities that give PC911 its spice. If you squelch that, you'll be left with white bread. Boring.

Alex, you have a great place here. You can kick out whomever you chose. Marti, you can be as politically correct as you want. Please do not interpret my criticisms the wrong way. I'm aware that you run the show and can do whatever you want. I just want to say that I think you're making a mistake and you'll smother what's been an open and free environment.

Someone here said that Alex or Marti spoke for all of us. Nobody speaks for everybody and you're mistaken in saying that. I speak for myself, thank you.

fantastic post, well said freespirit :D

applauds

but genuinely this time }>

that was so good, I think I'm going to get my motorbike out again !

:* :+ }> :o :P ;-)

Guys.. Come on this is pc911 Friendly expert computer help-In plain english... NO where does it say "Days of our lives"

"This is how I left anouther computer forum a few months ago. I have winMe.
I clicked favorites, clicked organize favorites, clicked that forums url and then deleted it. That's it. Seems a lot easier to me."

gowen, dealing with issues by being "thick skinned" and keeping feelings pent up has , in my experience, proved to be more harmful in the long run. In my view, Hal did right to express his feelings.
People like him will tend to live longer lives as they are less prone to nervous disorders and psychosomatic illnesses; it is much less healthy to bottle things up

:-)

Dr Ed.

Might help anyone so affected?



;-) ;-)

i really like that picture, we could all do with uncorking from time to time :-)

some people pay a lot of money for that :o

Right on, Joe!

Just what the good doctor ordered.

And we could all do with lightening up some.

It must have all been said by now and it's beginning to even sound like the Last Post!

:) :D

That is quite an impressive post, and contains much that most folks, after giving it some thought, would probably agree with. I really don't think most forum regulars desire to see Hal leave the forum, but I do believe most would like to see everyone making an effort to follow the rules and guidelines Alex has set up. Any opinions to the contrary, it really is Alex's site, and most folks who make the effort Alex has to set up and maintain a site, have a desire in mind as to what they would like that site to be, and they have that right, it does NOT belong to the public(check on who pays the bills and puts in the maintenance time). I have not seen anywhere that Alex has shown a desire to stifle and silence, and I believe references to that sort of thing to be ridiculous and unfair to him. I do think his intent is to have a forum with a computer related focus, and I haven't seen an attempt to supress the OT area(but no forum can be the forum that offers all). I have read his posts stating his desire as to flame wars, lack of respect for other forum members and moderators, and general meanness... and he has that right. Has no one actually picked up on the point Alex has made numerous times?.... it's not so much the point or opinion that's being put forth many times, but the manner in which it's being presented.

I really believe that folks who work within the forum rules as plainly posted(and they are certainly not suppressive), use a little common sense in posting, maintain a reasonable degree of respect and civility, and give other folks the tolerance they demand for themselves, have little to fear from Alex and the moderators as to suppression and deletion. On the other hand, people who believe they have the right to go to any website they please, post whatever they like, on whatever subject they choose, and in any manner they choose, in the name of democratic freedom of course.... should most likely face the reality of the situation and find a compatible forum, or start their own.

Randell

It's interesting that you speak of people afraid of getting their feelings hurt or offended. Isn't this what happened to Hal? Didn't he get his feelings hurt and that's why he decided to leave? He misinterpreted a general request as a personal attack of someone trying to oppress him. Underdogs generally view themselves as victims; victims of oppression, victims of injustice, victims of this or that. It's easy being a victim because it frees you from any personal responsibility. Sometimes the underdog isn't a victim, sometimes the underdog is just plain wrong and has to be put back in it's place. Rather than tucking tail and taking his one voice away it should have just made his skin thicker. After all, getting pissed off is a part of his heritage. He should have embraced it and allowed it to make him healthier. Who now will stand up for justice and defend the weak?

I have never been Hal's gal, but I'm sure he's a great guy. You spoke eloquently of him. Along with being the defender of truth and justice you also defined his style as; attacking. Might this then suggest that those uncomfortable with confrontation did not in fact go down that road, but rather the road came to them? Who then I ask was there to defend those poor souls?

You ask, "Isn't the exchange of ideas more important than good etiquette?". Should not good etiquette be a part of the exchange of ideals?

I don't think his action took balls, but rather gall. He doesn't mind putting it out there but when it comes back at him, he bails.

david

But you're missing a lot of history. He doesn't "bail", he follows through on his arguments. The point is, he's more or less been forbidden from doing that. This isn't by any means "coming back at him" on a level playing field. Really, what the heck else should he do? Eat crow pie just because moderators have spoken? No, he's going to leave, and he's going to tell people why he's leaving.

He is most certainly not going to change his views, and if he's got to watch what he's saying lest he run afoul of administrative action then perhaps it's just not worth the bother to him. I know this, because he and I are of similar mind on this issue.

Not long ago, I felt as he did and almost left. Not because of administrative action... just the opposite. I was tired of taking flack from people because of being a moderator and an asshole at the same time, and was starting to think that maybe leaving was the best thing for everyone, me included. I too announced my intentions, but I wasn't too proud to come back when I realized it was really just very few I was at odds with.

If Hal is reading this, that last paragraph was a hint.

>I don't think his action took balls, but rather gall. He
>doesn't mind putting it out there but when it comes back at
>him, he bails.
>
>david

>It's interesting that you speak of people afraid of getting
>their feelings hurt or offended. Isn't this what happened to
>Hal? Didn't he get his feelings hurt and that's why he
>decided to leave?

I don't know if his feelings were hurt. I would imagine that he thought that Martis' threat was heavy handed and that he didn't want to stick around if he can't speak freely.

>He misinterpreted a general request as a
>personal attack of someone trying to oppress him.

Yeah? Well so did few other people here, including another moderator.

>Underdogs generally view themselves as victims; victims of >oppression, victims of injustice, victims of this or that. It's >easy being a victim because it frees you from any personal
>responsibility. Sometimes the underdog isn't a victim,
>sometimes the underdog is just plain wrong and has to be put
>back in it's place.

I don't recall anyone claiming to have been a victim. Victim of what?

>Rather than tucking tail and taking his one voice away it should >have just made his skin thicker.

Perhaps, but it was made very clear that only certain conversation will be tolerated and anything else will be deleted.

>After all, getting pissed off is a part of his heritage. He
>should have embraced it and allowed it to make him
>healthier.

From your sarcastic tone, I would gather that you disagree with my comments about American heritage and the healthiness of speaking freely.

>Who now will stand up for justice and defend the weak?

Geez, I dunno. Ralph Nader, maybe? Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Princess Diana - they're all gone. Maybe you should volunteer. You know, a thousand points of light and all that.

>I have never been Hal's gal, but I'm sure he's a great guy.

You'll have to take that up with Hal, but I don't think you're his type.

>You spoke eloquently of him. Along with being the defender
>of truth and justice you also defined his style as;
>attacking. Might this then suggest that those uncomfortable
>with confrontation did not in fact go down that road, but
>rather the road came to them? Who then I ask was there to
>defend those poor souls?

Hal and others have enganged in some pretty tough debates. There are a number of people here who have an agressive style. I don't remember any member whining about an exchange with any of them. All have seemed very capable of handling whatever is dished out. Is there someone, in particular, that you fell needs defending?

>You ask, "Isn't the exchange of ideas more important than
>good etiquette?". Should not good etiquette be a part of the
>exchange of ideals?

I don't know about that. I tend to be more on the polite and mild mannered side. I have been ripped to shreds by some who are not. I don't regret one of those conversations. You know what Harry Truman said.

>I don't think his action took balls, but rather gall. He
>doesn't mind putting it out there but when it comes back at
>him, he bails.

Hal has taken it on the chin, here, many a time. Some have even pointed that out in this thread. It was the threat of being deleted, when nothing obscene or out of the ordinary was said, that made him leave. I don't think that has anything to do with balls or gall. He merely wanted to be able to speak freely.

I don't think anyone threatened to ban or block him. It was time to call a time out. This isn't a street corner; it's a moderated forum. If Hal is that fragile, there's more to be addressed than his postings. What I saw was someone with a very fragile ego, being asked to chill, and assuming it was a personal attack. Not a very impressive response.

And yes, I have the credentials.

Goody for you. Hope that reinforces YOUR fragile ego.

English is not my mothertonque, so it is difficult for me to express my emotional feelings in that language. Freespirit you took the words right of my mouth, thank you.

Nolus

This Is My Last Post- LOL!

I'd like to clarify a few things before I go for those that haven't yet fallen off into an obsequious stupor.

Creations take on a life of their own, they cannot be privately owned except by those who mutually consent to its ownership. In this case, what's being defined as the property of someone else isn't just the forum, it's a stream of thought. This forum is the people in it, but even more specifically, this forum is what all of you THINK. Your thoughts are the end product here. No one can own that! Many people are so unacquainted with what it is to truly be free, that they allow themselves to be told where they are permitted to exercise their freedom of thought. The truth is, you have the right and are permitted to exercise your freedom of thought no matter where you are, you don't need a reason or anyone's permission. Many of you will say that kind of thinking is irresponsible. That's because you've been taught to accept that belief and haven't yet begun to think for yourselves. What some of you don't seem to understand is that a warning to extract the product of your thinking is the same as extracting it; it is merely a statement of intent. Some of you are in such a state of deep sleep and denial that you don't even know you're being controlled and will argue to the death that you are free and awake.

There are a few people here who are perceived as intellectuals. They have presented great philosophical monuments to rationalize the need to establish control and are the intellectual puppets that manifest the spirit for the desire for that control. That role has been played out by other so-called intellectuals in many cultures, many times throughout history.

We are all free. One's freedom is and has always only been a question of preventing others from making you believe they can take it away from you. I have chosen to leave because an intent has been made public to edit my thoughts and in effect claim ownership to them. Instead of consenting to that kind of arrangement, I choose to leave--it's that simple. No one is a bad guy here. I admire and like many here. For every door one closes, a door opens. I wish you all well.

Very eloquent.....goodbye!

Now you need to edit the thread....

This IS My (second to) Last Post!

Where's the popcorn?...this is getting very interesting. :7

That's all fine and good, but what if you found a forum that was 5000 Hals? Would that be any fun? Of course not. You like to stir the pot, and the world needs pot stirrers - because most of us aren't. It's a delicate art, and you're moving toward a higher plane with it, if you keep working on it. If you stay you might not only develop that skill, but learn something about yourself in the process.

I love this place, and I'll fight to defend it if I have to. I've learned more about myself in the few years I've been here than I have about computers. It's been an interesting journey for me, and one I didn't even know I was on for awhile. If you walk away from adversity, you're just validating that which you claim to loathe. Walking away when you think you're right is how negative forces gain their power.

Stick around and mix it up. The forum will be better for it and maybe you will too.

bye

Very eloquent. Now stfu and leave.

>Very eloquent. Now stfu and leave.<
Perhaps not quite so eloquent, my friend?

"Stfu" is an acronym designed to intimidate, nothing more, nothing less!! :-(

However, the mods have let it past, so why not stfu in return :-( >

And, I'm on no one's side, but my own.

With such a large community that is so diverse in education, focus, age & understanding, it isn't too surprising that periodically intense debates arise in OT discussions. You learn a lot about each other during those debates - some good, some not so good.

What isn't too surprising either, is that interpretations of what is said varies widely, most responses are not carefully written or interpreted & people are offended. Part of the price of admission.

A few things from my point of view:

1. I've never found that logic or a well thought-out (intellectual or otherwise) argument will always persuade others. Understanding that reflects some level of maturity.

2. The inability to maintain civility in any debate on any subject is the mark of a very defensive personality.

3. Ignorance & intolerance comes in many varieties.

4. Lastly, some times the best way to end a discussion going nowhere is the diplomatic statement "You may be right" & leave it at that.

I have been coming to PC911 for a number of years. I find most people here helpful & decent human beings, even when they don't know the "correct" answer to a question. There are a few who aren't. That is no difference from the normal populace & I don't spend a lot of time reading posts that are intended to be offensive. What I do get here is the very best advice & understanding on computer systems & once in a while we get to share each others personal achievements or impacts of life - good & bad.

Alex - You run a very fine forum. Don't change a thing.

Fred

necessary to post his "final views". As grogan said, the kids got balls, which a lot of others are seriously lacking. Envy, perhaps?

Look, bottom line is, as long as we are respectful of others as PEOPLE, why wouldn't we want to share/here ones views? Does it not (even if we disagree) enrich our lives, just from the experience?

Agree to disagree!

I too am of the kind to speak my mind, stand up for what I believe in, and sometimes I stand alone. Doesn't make me wrong, or right, but at least I make a choice, state an opinion.

At the same time, I am quick to realize when my view is "incomplete", and acknowledge so. Nothing wrong with that either.

Why this post here, beats the shite out of me, I just wanted to add my 2 cents. Do I care if someone agrees with me, no. Do I care if you disagree, no as well.

I thoroughly enjoy SOME of the OT threads here, and whether or not I agree/disagree with them, is immaterial. Another 2 cents.

Just wanted to make a point, and that is all I have to say except...

HAL...

Man, don't compromise your beliefs, and never give up on that which has got you here. At the same time, notice the people here who speak out in favour of "free speech". Delivered in a respectful manner, as you do. Spread the word, you once said to me, how you gonna do that from afar!?

To all the flamers...

EDIT for spelling!







MY HOME PAGE!

i'm sorry you feel that way, but the heated discussions in the past you cited are the exact reason why marti and i made the comments we made. i will no longer tolerate the flames and useless arguments that have taken place here in the past because it has gotten way out of hand. since the forum obviously has outgrown the capability of moderating itself the way it was in the past, i plan to pay more attention to the discussions going on to make sure posts stay polite and constructive. i expect everybody to shape up or ship out.

on the other hand, if either moderating efforts are fruitless, or proper moderating by me and the team is not possible, then we'll have to draw the logical consequences.

when you post here, imagine you're sitting in my living room as a guest, discussing a topic with another guest. if you're polite and constructive and everybody has a good time, that's awesome. but if somebody starts getting loud, rude, and offensive, i'll throw them out of the house. simple as that.

quite frankly, i'm getting tired of having to post explanations like this. i thought we all are adults who have learned how to have a civil conversation, but there are always a few people who just don't know any better.

we'll see what happens...