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ShellyWed Apr-17-02 07:04 AM
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"OT - Wailing Wall"


  

          

A journalist assigned to the Jerusalem bureau has an apartment overlooking the Western Wall. Every day when she looks out, she sees an old bearded Jewish man praying vigorously. Certain he would be a good interview subject, the journalist goes down to the Wall, and introduces herself to the old man.

She asks, "You come every day to the Wall. Sir, how long have you done that and what are you praying for?"

The old man replies, "I have come here to pray every day for 25 years.

In the morning I pray for world peace and for the brotherhood of man.
I go home have a cup of tea, and I come back and pray for the eradication of illness and disease from the earth. And very, very important, I pray for peace and understanding between the Israelis and Palestinians."

The journalist is impressed. "How does it make you feel to come here every day for 25 years and pray for these wonderful things?"

The old man replies, calmly, "Like I'm talking to a wall."

Shelly

  

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CrunkWed Apr-17-02 07:30 AM
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#1. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)
Wed Apr-17-02 08:36 AM

  

          

I just recently studied about the Wailing Wall, I don't know what to say


I didn't want to laugh because this poor guy's been praying for 25 years and I didn't think it was appropriate (then again, it's his choice). So haha



  

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JPWed Apr-17-02 07:36 AM
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#2. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)


          

Honestly Shelly, I don't whether to laugh, or throw this half eaten biscut at you!

What an appropiate joke on the current events of our times.

JP

  

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GroganWed Apr-17-02 08:05 AM
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#3. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)


  

          

Heh, good one Shelly!

Grogan

  

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EthanWed Apr-17-02 08:16 AM
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#4. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)


  

          

Thats a good one!

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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hal9000Wed Apr-17-02 12:39 PM
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#5. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)
Wed Apr-17-02 01:29 PM

          

If the old man were a Palestinian in the town of Janin he either be dead or starving and praying. The latest unbiased news reports indicate that that two thirds of the homes in Janin have been destroyed by bulldozers. Palestinans trapped under rubble attempted to make calls for help on cell phones. Feet and hands have been found among the rubble of buildings which has been bulldozed over 2 and 3 times to bury the remains of bodies in an attempt to conceal the actual body count of Palestinians.

"... Quoting the London Independent.. hundreds of corpses under a 1/3 mile square bulldozed area.. now Chevas Moore who has been living in Jenin for the last three days.. Chevas Moore: teacher at Berziet University.. coming in and out bringing food to people.. I've seen pictures of Lebanon.. here like those pictures.. people living in complete rubble.. no water, no food, no electricity.. dead bodies, and the smell of dead bodies throughout the camp."

Listen to the radio reports that describe the carnage, destruction and stench of human flesh that the mainstream US Media refuses to report and doesn't tell you.

You'll need RealOne Player - Click stop and start if program doesn't play immediately after loading.
http://www.flashpoints.net/cgi-bin/ra.pl?date=20020416&start=05:30
or
http://www.flashpoints.net/

  

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MeehowskiWed Apr-17-02 02:17 PM
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#6. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 5)


  

          

Excellent.......

Shelly......be well.....

Meehowski

  

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AlWed Apr-17-02 02:22 PM
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#7. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 5)


  

          

The Independent isn't considered much of a source for news...will you quote Pravda next?



  

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doctormidnightWed Apr-17-02 07:57 PM
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#18. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 7)


  

          

LOL, Al...the last thing we need around here is someone reading "Truth"...but it could be worst, At least he's not reading from the Washington Post }>

  

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SonnyWed Apr-17-02 02:32 PM
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#8. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 5)


  

          

You're a complete Ass. Anyone who would qoute the London Independant is nothing more than an indoctrinated fool. Go wollow in your own shit. Take your radical rantings and create your own forum where overeducated morons like you can gather. The site is available. Cheap.

www.moronsrus.com






  

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GroganWed Apr-17-02 07:54 PM
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#17. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Sonny (Reply # 8)


  

          

I agree, Sonny. Hal isn't to be outdone by someone posting humour... he's got to be the center of attention.

Grogan

  

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SonnyWed Apr-17-02 08:01 PM
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#19. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 17)


  

          

Grogan, I very seldom get involved in these kind of posts. But, with mindless rantings presented as fact, you just have to state the obvious.






  

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baloWed Apr-17-02 03:13 PM
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#9. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 5)


          



Hal, try reading a few facts on the problem at hand.

Back to the Future Let us not forget 1967.

By Victor Davis Hanson, author most recently of Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power.


The proposed solution to the crisis in the Middle East is predicated on one notion: the return of the West Bank and all the other lands occupied by Israel after June 10, 1967. As the current conventional wisdom goes, our diplomatic efforts should be directed toward that single goal. Israel must give back conquered land. In return its Arab neighbors will promise to recognize its existence, make peace, and normalize relations.

One way of determining whether such an agreement would lead to peace would be to imagine what really might happen should Israel give up all of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights. Fortunately, we need not be utopian about the future, but rather simply revisit the past before June 5, 1967. Then Israel possessed none of those territories. Yet there was no peace - but simply a series of pauses between wars not unlike the present predicament. A quick perusal of a number of general histories about the pre-1967 era - especially Michael Oren's forthcoming magisterial work Six Days of War - reveals a chilling similarity with the present calamity.

Did the Arab states accept Israel's right to exist between 1947 and 1967, when it remained within its U.N.-mandated (Resolution 181) borders? Hardly. Three wars were fought to destroy Israel itself, not to restore the West Bank for the Palestinians. We must remember that for all the talk of Palestinian grievances over the present occupation, Muslims are now allowed free access to their mosques in a manner Jews and Christians were not accorded for their own places of worship under Jordanian control. Desecration of religious shrines and cemeteries was a pre-1967, not a present, phenomenon.

Are suicide bombers and terrorism a new development, a desperate response to the brutal occupation of Palestinian land after 1967? Perhaps, perhaps not. But for Israel's first 20 years of existence terrorists of all sorts crossed over from the Arab West Bank, Syria, and Gaza to kill civilians in efforts to demolish the Jewish state. Instead of Hamas and Hezbollah, such killers used to be dubbed with similar grandiose, but empty, names like "Youths of Revenge" and "Heroes of the Return" - the "return" meaning, of course, all of Israel, not the West Bank, which was in Arab hands.

In 1964 the Syrian chief of Staff Salah Jadid summed it up best, "Every soldier in our army feels that Israel must be wiped off of the map." The nascent al Fatah, along with Syria, bragged in 1967 that "We will carry on operations until Israel has been eliminated." Indeed, Radio Damascus was quite explicit about its intentions well before it lost the Golan Heights: "Our known objective is the freeing of Palestine and the liquidation of the Zionist existence there" - again "Palestine" did not mean the West Bank. The PLO's Ahmad Shuqayri was clear about that "We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants and as for survivors - if there are any - the boats are ready to deport them." Some will say, "that was then; this is now" - but the rhetoric from Syria and the Palestinian militants is as disturbing today as it was then.

Does America's support for Israel contribute to the present unrest, and thus create a destabilizing preponderance of military strength for the Jewish state? Forget for the moment that our current aggregate aid to the Palestinians, Jordan, and Egypt is roughly the same amount as we give the Israelis, and instead think back to the first twenty years of Israel's existence. Then America gave almost no military hardware to Israel - except for a few outdated tanks and some short-ranged missiles. Its Air Force consisted mostly of French Mirages and Ouragans - largess that quickly ceased once the 1967 war broke out. Recently we read of a French diplomat's off-the-record remark that Israel is a "sh***y little country." But de Gaulle himself had said as much earlier to Israeli envoys - that he was not about to endanger relations with the Arab world because of some "superficial sympathy for Israel as a small country with an unhappy history."

On the eve of the 1967 war the Arab world had spent $1 billion on defense - more than double the Israeli investment. Indeed, Israel's armed forces were dwarfed by those of its neighbors, which had twice the number of tanks and three times as many jets. Before the Six Day War, the combined Arab armies fielded 900 combat aircraft, 5,000 tanks, and 500,000 soldiers - the latter for the most part outfitted with the latest Soviet and American arms.

Of course, what the Russians and the Americans could not supply to the Arabs were modern maintenance regimes, literate soldiers, secularly educated officers, Western ideas of discipline, merit-system command structures, and rare leaders like Dayan, Rabin, Eshkol, Elazar, Ebban, Meir, and others who were the fruits of a secular, rational, free, and democratic state. The Palestinians now like to cite the unfairness of American-made "Apaches and F-16s" in Israel. Yet when their side had all
the material advantages and a staggering edge in weaponry the Arabs still lost.

Has America shown a decided prejudice toward the Israeli side that explains the sudden Arab hostility toward the United States? Not really. An Israeli head of state had never officially been received at the White House until 1964 - nearly 20 years after the foundation of the Jewish State! For most of its early years, Israel depended on support initially from the Soviet Union and later France. Indeed, during the first three Middle East wars the United States sold weapons to nearly every Arab regime and had a military base in Libya. During the 1967 war it essentially supplied no weapons to Israel during the fighting - in dire worry over its military arrangements with many Arab countries and its access to Middle East oil. Nearly forty years ago, as today, Americans were giving Egypt free grain, shipping tanks to Jordan, cozying up to the Saudis, and lecturing Israel on restraint - and the Arab world liked us no better then than it does now.

Are thugs and tyrants like Saddam Hussein a new phenomenon in the Middle East? Once again, almost every atrocity now associated with Iraq could be paralleled under Nasser's Egypt, from a massive secret police to a tribal military clique - even the gassing of fellow Muslims and threats to use such poison against Israel. Well before the Kurdish massacre and the SCUD threat during the Gulf War, Nasser gassed Yemeni villages, and threatened the Israelis with the same - prompting the West Germans (of all people!) to rush 20,000 gas masks to Tel Aviv. Nasser's agents, along with Palestinian terrorists, plotted several assassination attempts against King Hussein of
Jordan and organized raids into neighboring countries. His "official" 99.9 plurality in "elections" was about the same margin as Yasser Arafat's and Saddam Hussein's. And any in Syria who thought about returning the Golan Heights in exchange for peace were tried and executed on trumped-up charges of sedition.

Nor is the current lunatic Anti-Americanism new. Syrian Radio blared before the 1967 war, "The Arab seas and the fish in them will feed on the Americans' rotting imperialist bodies." Thirty-five years before Mr. Atta's work on 9/11, Radio Cairo trumped Syrian calumny with the macabre but now prescient warning, "Millions of Arabs are preparing to blow up all of America's interests, all of America's installations, and your entire existence, America." The same big lies that we see today on al Jazeera were the everyday stuff of the latter 1960s - when official government radio stations blared out daily untruths that Americans had bombed Arab countries during the Six Day War and so prevented a "sure" Muslim victory.

What are we to make of all this monotonous Middle Eastern cycle of envy, bluster, defeat, shame, terror / envy, bluster, defeat, shame, terror? Some tough admissions are in order. A great many Arabs - not all, but too many to be controlled by the impotent mechanisms of duplicitous, ineffective, and autocratic governments - will always wish to kill the Jews and destroy Israel, for a variety of complex reasons that transcend the occupation of territory. A schizophrenic hatred of and desire for the West is perhaps at the heart of the antipathy. After all, a man who chants and spews hatred in the street against Israel and the West on Sunday, and then on the next morning begs to work there to earn cash to buy Western material goods is a pretty-mixed up and angry fellow.

There is no evidence of democracy anywhere in the Middle East except in Israel - then, now, or in the near future. But without free societies and education systems that are also open and subject to secular critique in the Middle East, we should get used to a continual Arab effort every few years - 1946, 1956, 1967, 1973, 2001 - to destroy Israel. Whether we ignore Israel (1946, 1956, 1967), actively back it (1973), or seek to be an honest broker (1982, 2001) means little in an undemocratic Arab world, which will hate us regardless. They see any Israeli concessions - whether the withdrawal from Lebanon or the proposed return of all the West Bank - as a requisite step forward in the eventual absorption of Israel, rather than cause for reciprocal magnanimity and eventual peace.

If the Arab League really wishes a settlement, they should invite Mr. Sharon to their future conferences. If Mr. Arafat really wishes to create a democratic state in Palestine, he should hold real elections (under U.N. supervision) immediately and lift all censorship of the media. Americans should insist on elections in the region - especially in Syria, Jordan, and Egypt. As Israel pulls out of the West Bank, Syria must leave Lebanon. And if Palestinians wish a return of prosperity and the eventual autonomy of the West Bank then they should condemn the suicide bombers as murderers, not praise them as martyrs. Only that way can the world be sure that
thinking in the Middle East has evolved beyond the barbarism of 1967.

During this entire crisis Americans have hoped for the enlightenment, favored restraint, and been sorely disappointed - whether the Clinton efforts at brokering a Middle East settlement, past administrations' lack of real responses to overt terrorist attacks, the recent lull between September 11 and October 7 in hopes of talking sense to the Taliban, or the present efforts to force U.N. weapons inspectors into Iraq. In contrast, every time that we have shown independence, principle - and force - freeing
the unfree in Afghanistan, sending home Mr. Zinni, warning Arafat that the wages of his suicide bombers naturally bring Israeli retaliation against his police-state infrastructure, and letting the Pakistanis and Saudis know of our growing anger, we have done far better and fewer have died.

What a strange world we live in: What our academics, intellectuals, and self-professed ethicists call morality so often turns out to be so abjectly amoral - and downright deadly as well.







http://www.bobbalogh.com/


  

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jasonlevineWed Apr-17-02 05:32 PM
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#10. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to balo (Reply # 9)


  

          

Hi balo,

Nice history you compiled there. I'd just like to add a few more points. The Arab countries are fond of saying that Israel is oppressing the Palestinians, but they don't like to admit what they do to the Palestinians. They have Palestinian populations too (especially Jordan) and they keep them in refuge camps instead of assimilating their "Arab brothers." (Granted the Palestinians can cause trouble even for Arab countries. The Palestinians in Jordan tried to overthrow King Hussain.) The Arab countries like to have a "downtrodden" Palestinian population to show the cameras because it engenders sympathy (both at home and worldwide) and helps keep their people's attention away from their own atrocities. ("Don't look at what we're doing... See these poor Palestinians? It's Israel's fault. Yeah, that's it.")

Arafat has continually been given increasingly generous peace deals (some might even call them too generous), but his idea of negotiation seems to be: Always hold out for more. When Israel offered the West Bank, he wanted half of Jerusalem or no deal. So Barak offered half of Jerusalem (a wildly unpopular move) and Arafat said "I want Right of Return or no deal." (Even though most of the "Palestinians" who'd be returning never lived in Israel/Palestine.)

And while Arafat was talking peace in English (for American/European audiences), he was talking terrorism in Arabic (for his own people). Arafat's only out for Arafat and is only concerned with keeping himself in power. He knows fully well that if he were to make peace with Israel and/or really denouce terrorism, he'd become a target for the terrorists (who'd try to overthrow him).

I don't agree with what Israel has been doing 100% but I really don't think they had many attractive options. It seems a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils (possible civilian Palestinian deaths in a terrorist crackdown or definite civilian Israeli deaths in more suicide bombings) and I don't envy the choices Sharon has to make.


- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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FZbarWed Apr-17-02 05:38 PM
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#11. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 10)


  

          

Very well said, Jason.

Fred

  

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AlWed Apr-17-02 07:15 PM
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#14. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to balo (Reply # 9)
Wed Apr-17-02 07:16 PM

  

          

THE MASSACRE THAT WASN'T
New York Post | 4/17/02

April 17, 2002 -- For days, Palestinian, U.N. and aid-group officials declared flatly that Israeli troops had perpetrated a horrendous massacre of innocent civilians at the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank.
Once outside observers were allowed into the camp, they charged, it would be clear that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's soldiers had committed a monstrous war crime that would eclipse the killing fields of Kosovo.

On Monday, journalists entered Jenin. And what they found put the lie to Yasser Arafat's outrageous propaganda.

To be sure, the physical destruction was enormous, reflecting the intense fighting that took 23 Israeli lives.

But, Newsday's Edward Gargan wrote, "There is little evidence to suggest that Israeli troops conducted a massacre of the dimensions alleged by Palestinian officials." Said The Washington Post's Molly Moore: "No evidence has yet surfaced to support allegations by Palestinian groups and aid organizations of large-scale massacres or executions."

One U.N. official told Moore, "Everybody was thinking mass graves in the way we think of Kosovo." But, he added, "I don't think we have seen that."

So much for Arafat's Big Lie.

About 40 bodies were discovered, all but three of them men - ammunition belts strapped to their bodies - who quite clearly were engaged in armed combat with the Israelis.

Indeed, it was precisely because Israel refused to conduct indiscriminate bombing attacks - preferring the more dangerous course of house-to-house searches - that 13 of its troops were killed at a booby-trapped house.

As the Israeli corps commander noted, "I could have finished it all with a whistle. Full-corps fire on the center of the camp and the whole thing would have been over. But we behave differently."

In fact, Jenin was a hotbed of Palestinian terrorist activity. Even Israel's dovish foreign minister, Shimon Peres, acknowledges that "there wasn't a house that wasn't booby-trapped."

Arafat's henchmen, confronted by the evidence, now claim that the Israelis secretly spirited away hundreds of bodies under cover of night. Right.

Sadly, the damage to Israel's image already has been done. Far too many people already believe the legend of the Jenin massacre, and international media reports - especially in Europe - refuse to acknowledge the truth.

It's yet another burden that Israel must carry in its courageous battle to defeat the evil menace of terrorism.



  

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ShellyWed Apr-17-02 10:24 PM
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#24. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 5)


  

          

"The latest unbiased news reports ..."

Meaning, I assume, that these reports reflect YOUR particular bias?

Shelly

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 12:52 AM
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#31. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 24)
Thu Apr-18-02 12:54 AM

          

In view of the US media's complete lack of coverage about the violation of human rights that are taking place at the refuge camps of Janin, Nablus, Tulkarm and Ramallah, I'd say the US mainstream Media are the ones who are biased.

This morning's headlines read:

CBS
Powell Wrapping Up Mideast Mission

ABC
Indecent Law

Reuters
Boston Cardinal Discusses Sex Scandal with Pope

AP
Bush Urges Patience on Terror Fight

NBC News
Powell leaving Mideast without deal

Fox News
Powell Predicts Progress

New York Times
Near Visit's End, Powell Dampens the Expectations

Washington Post
Powell, Arafat Meeting Underway in Ramallah

Associated Press
Powell Meets With Sharon

USA Today
Powell reports 'progress'
Meets with Arafat Wednesday.

The refugee camp of Janin had 15,000 residents. Currently, only some 2000-3000 thousand remain. Families are scattered, missing, mothers cannot find their children, wives cannot find their husbands. There's no food, water, or medical supplies for the remaining Janin residents who hide in groups of 50-60 in basements.

I'd say that's pretty big news. Where's all that cutting edge reporting in the midst of war in the occupied territories. Where's Dan Rather and Geraldo Rivera now? I guess to Israel and the US the suffering and loss of Palestinian lives really don't mean anything. I guess the US thinks that Palestinian civilians don't have souls and aren't worth reporting about.



  

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EthanThu Apr-18-02 01:31 AM
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#32. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 5)


  

          

Tonight we just finished celebrating our 54th independence day in Israel. Every speech I heard both in English and Hebrew spoke of peace between the Israeli people and the Palestinian People. No one spoke of defeating the Palestinians people. No one spoke of driving the Palestinians people away.
I am no fan of Arik Sharon, I don't like his rhetoric or his tactics but as Prime Minister he has done a remarkable job of restraint. If the citizens of any of our neighboring countries had carried on like the Palestinians have the past 2 years, they would have been massacred at the start up, to the silence of the world and maybe in the long run at a lesser loss of life!!
Our previous Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, committed Political suicide by offering Arafat too much. He now has declared that Arafat can not be negotiated with!! Arafat cannot negotiate in good faith. It appears that we will have to wait for a change of leadership, theirs and probably ours.
We did not start the war in 1967. Hal9000 will probably say that Israel attacked the Arabs in 1967. Although we preemptively struck Egypt and Syria after they sent the UN home, closed our shipping, massed troops on our borders, and paralyzed our economy, Jordan chose on their own to enter the war and thus lost the West Bank.
Under International law we have no obligation to return any of the land we won in a war against us. We also have no desire to be conquers of a people. Our dream has always been land for peace. Theirs has always been all or nothing.
I would recommend the perusal of the UN document partitioning http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm
Anwar Sadat and King Hussein offered to talk of peace in good faith, We all got what we asked for there were only winners, no losers, unlike the present situation.

I know it apposes Political Correctness in a country that doesn’t even allow security profiling, But I would recommend for people to read the Holy Koran, It was withdrawn from California schools because of the intolerance that is written in it.
The conflict here is a mixture of nationalism and religion. Either President Bush or Secretary Powell, (I forgot which) proposed that Jordan and Egypt get actively involved in finding a solution. Both of these Countries are Moslem countries sitting on powder kegs of Islamic fundamentalism. Here we have the Hamas and Hisbala fighting us from an Islamic fundamentalist position. They can not live with non Muslims in their midst. The nationalist are victims of the fuel that the fundamentalist continue to through on the flames. Egypt and Jordan can not risk awaking a non sleeping jinni. Thus they remain minimally involved. Peace has proven good to all of our peoples.
The Palestinians are victims of their own leadership; they could have had independence long ago. They could have been working on building a flourishing economy.
One more document worth reading is the Israeli declaration of independence it can be found here http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/israel.htm

Shelly, I really liked your joke.

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 02:57 AM
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#33. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 32)


          

In the past 10 years Israel has doubled the number of settlements in the occupied territories and in the last year has built 34 new settlements.

What Barak offered at Camp David was not an Independent Palestinian state and was not an end to Israel's military occupation. It was the maintenance of occupation by other means. It was a Palestinian arrangement broken up into small pieces totally separated by Jewish ONLY roads with 80% of the settlers still in place, no external borders, no control over its air space, no control over its water, no free passage in and out of the so-called states and absolutely none of the aspects of sovereignty except a flag and a so-called state and name.

An Israeli would never except living under foreign military rule as they ask of the Palestinians. There are more than 200,000 Israeli settlers in and around Jerusalem. Barak's plan is like saying we keep what we took since 1967 and we let the Palestinians have some control over the areas they still live in. This is not a serious offer to the Palestinians.

But to spite that, it wasn't the Palestinians that broke up the talks. It was Barak that broke the talks off in January 2001 and since then Israel has refused to negotiate.

And maybe you haven't heard that UN Security Council Resolution 1402, passed last week with the support of the United States, requires the immediate withdrawal of Israeli occupation forces from Palestinian towns and cities, especially Ramallah.


  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 03:46 AM
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#34. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 33)


  

          

Hal,

Let me ask you this. What or who do you think will do anything about it? You?

Israel is not only the only democracy in the region, it is the only nuclear power. It has the only world class military in the region as well. Let's be very honest here. The Israelis have shown extraordinary restraint. They have the means to have wiped the Palestinians off the face of the earth. Their neighbors have done nothing but preach their destruction for 50 years, and yet, they (who have the means) have shown great restraint. Mecca still stands. Cairo still stands. Egypt, Jordan, Syria are all still in existence.

If you are so worried about Israel and how they deal with Palestinians, why don't you take a trip there and actually provide some aid yourself?



  

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yomama1953Wed Apr-17-02 06:44 PM
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#12. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)


          

This post really gets one to thinking. Thanks Shelly.









  

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TuffWed Apr-17-02 07:04 PM
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#13. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)


          

Good one Shelly,he sure is right .It's unfortunate, but I think he will be talking to that wall probably another 25 years.I hope things will change,but with the two leaders they have now,it appears very doubtful,Tuff









  

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MeehowskiWed Apr-17-02 07:39 PM
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#15. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Tuff (Reply # 13)


  

          

This fighting has been going on for 2,000+ years!!

Remember the destruction of The Temple?

Meehowski

  

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EthanThu Apr-18-02 05:14 PM
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#66. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Meehowski (Reply # 15)


  

          

Twice

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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scaramoucheWed Apr-17-02 07:52 PM
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#16. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Tuff (Reply # 13)


  

          

Ariel Sharon is no politician. He's been a soldier, since he was eighteen years of age, and he will solve every problem through the use of force, which was for 50 years has eluded the Israelis and never worked. They have won every battle and still, sadly, no peace.

On the other hand you have Yasser Arafat, a terrorist, a murderer, a person who has condoned murderous attacks through the guise "the end justifies the means. However, he is the Palestininan leader and you have to negotiate with him.

I'm sure that every Israeli wants peace and will be willing to give up land for that peace. But, the Arabs have to recognise Israel's right to exist. There have been wrongs done by both sides. There CANNOT be any peace if there are people still blaming the other.

The US is not, and I repeat, can never be a peace broker. It is seen by the Arabs as been too one-sided, in Israel's favour. I sometimes wonder that, if so many politicians, did not depend on the Jewish vote would the US be such a staunch supporter? The current President, George Bush, is perceived by the World as having no coherent MidEast policy. On the one hand he has to support Israel, dammit its election year, but then again he needs the support of certain Arab countries for the impending war with Iraq. Plus he has, little or no, experience.

The Israelis know that that the powerful US Jewish Lobby and the misconception,that all Arabs are terrorists, after Sep 11 is in their favour. That's why the current visit by Colin Powell has been largely ignored by Sharon.

So, there wasn't a massacre at Jenin. So Hitler, only murdered 10 jews. Does that make it any better? I think not.

I say, put 12 Jewish mothers in a room with 12 Palestinian mothers and there would be a peace accord in a few days. Why? They would not want to bury their sons and daughters.


Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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AlWed Apr-17-02 08:48 PM
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#20. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 16)


  

          

"he is the Palestininan leader and you have to negotiate with him"

Why?

Is he the elected leader?

Who made him the leader?

In dealing with him, don't we give him exactly the power he craves? And isn't that part of the reason he will never allow those negotiations to reach fruitation and destroy what little power he has?

The world would be a better place if the architect of the Munich massacre was not a participant.



  

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hal9000Wed Apr-17-02 09:59 PM
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#22. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 20)


          

This war has nothing to do with terroism. Terroism is an excuse. The war is to keep the occupation. You can't turn to the Palestinians and say you should not resist. They tried negotiations for 7 years with Israel and what is clear is that Israel is not willing to give up its occupation. International law absolutley supports the Palestinians because the entire occupation and Israel's settlements are illegal according to international law and the 4th Geneva Convention. The fact that the international community refuses to support the Palestinians means that they are checkmated. They have no where to go. They can't negotiate with Israel to give up its occupation and they don't get the backing of the international community. What do you expect the Palestians to do? Live forever under occupation?

  

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WakkoWed Apr-17-02 10:57 PM
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#27. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 22)


  

          

The Arabic countries put Palestians through occupation, not the Isrealies.

"Tell me and I'll forget. Show me and I'll remember. Involve me and I'll learn."

  

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jasonlevineThu Apr-18-02 07:29 AM
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#44. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 22)


  

          

This war has nothing to do with terroism. Terroism is an excuse. The war is to keep the occupation.

This war is so an Israeli can celebrate Passover or get a slice of pizza without fearing being blown to bits. How would you like to live with the constant fear that any time you leave your house might be the last time you do so? How long could you live like that? I think the Israelis have shown restraint that no other country would have shown.

You can't turn to the Palestinians and say you should not resist. They tried negotiations for 7 years with Israel and what is clear is that Israel is not willing to give up its occupation.

Actually, Israel constantly offered more and more and Arafat kept turning away the peace deals to demand more and more. And if you want to talk about occupation, look to the Arab countries. Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and the other Arab countries could have absorbed the displaced Palestinian population but they preferred to stick them into refugee camps to point to and say "Look at what the big, bad Jews did."

Do you want to know why Jordan wanted a Palestinian state before making peace with Israel? So it would have a place to ship the Palestinians living in Jordan. They don't want them there. (After all, they tried to overthrow the Jordanian goverment.)

International law absolutley supports the Palestinians because the entire occupation and Israel's settlements are illegal according to international law and the 4th Geneva Convention.

You don't seem too fond of actual fact, but let's look at them shall we? Israel was attacked by Jordan in 1967. Israel fought back. Israel drove Jordan back, taking the West Bank area. (And in fact, drove back Syria and Egypt at the same time.) International law recognizes the "right of conquest." Israel gained control of the Sinai Peninsula through this as well, but gave it back to Egypt in exchange for peace.

The fact that the international community refuses to support the Palestinians means that they are checkmated. They have no where to go. They can't negotiate with Israel to give up its occupation and they don't get the backing of the international community. What do you expect the Palestians to do? Live forever under occupation?

Well, they could stage non-violent protests. They could denounce the terrorism and head to the negotiating table in good faith. Instead, Arafat has constantly made it known that he considers the "Palestinian state" to really extend to the Mediterranian Sea with no Israel at all. The terrorists aren't fustrated with the peace process, they are completely opposed to peace. They want to see the entire nation of Israel destroyed (with as high a Jewish body count as they can manage).

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 08:58 AM
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#51. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 44)


          

>They want to see the entire
>nation of Israel destroyed (with as high a Jewish body count
>as they can manage).

I don't agree with the Palestinian suicide bombings. I think it is counter productive. I think responsible and peaceful Palestinians just want a sovereign and truly viable Palestinian state.

But as I've said before, what has destroying entire water systems, destroying thousands of acres of agricultural fields, uprooting hundreds of thousands of fruit trees and olive trees, destroying the sewage system, imposing a closure that impoverishes the Palestinian people and destroying the electrical infrastructure got to do with terrorism? Nothing.

It has to do with weakening the Palestinian infrastructure in order to keep them weak and in the end to defeat them.



  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 03:04 PM
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#61. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 51)


  

          

HAl,

You make a lot of accusations, but you back them up with questionable sources. Why don't you visit and see if your sources are correct? Have you ever been to Israel? Egypt? Saudi? Jordan?



  

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doctoreddiechakraThu Apr-18-02 11:14 AM
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#54. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 20)


  

          

"The world would be a better place if the architect of the Munich massacre was not a participant".
But it's ok if the architect of the Shettila massacre is allowed to be?
I sense that you are one of those unfortunate people who think only in terms of war. I suggest you seek counselling before you inflict your dangerous bloodlust on those nearest and dearest to you. You displace your psychotic hatred onto any group you despise, whether it be Palestinians or anyone you disagree with. Take it from me young man, the chickens of displaced psychosis eventually come home to roost
and you strike me as the kind of man who may walk into a Primary School with a submachine gun and wreak wanton destruction. Seek help
before you harm yourself.

  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 03:08 PM
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#62. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to doctoreddiechakra (Reply # 54)


  

          

Glad to hear you can psychoanalyze someone over the internet. Tell you what, how about taking your view of the world and visiting the Akha, Lisu, Mien and Mong in Myanmar? See how well it serves you...



  

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hal9000Wed Apr-17-02 09:33 PM
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#21. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 16)


          

We bought and paid for carnage of Palestinians

Sunday, April 14th, 2002

ROBERT JENSEN/Houston Chronicle
I helped kill a Palestinian today.

If you pay taxes to the U.S. government, so did you.

And unless the policies of the U.S. government change, tomorrow will be no different.

It is easy for Americans to decry the "cycle of violence" in Palestine, but until we acknowledge our own part in that violence, there is little hope for a just peace in Palestine or the Middle East.

The first step is to abandon the mythology that the United States is a "neutral broker for peace" in the conflict. A new report by the Institute for Southern Studies shows that in the one-year period after the Sharm el- Sheikh peace agreement in September 1999, the U.S. government pumped $3.6 billion worth of arms into Israel -- an odd policy for a country playing a supposedly neutral role.

So, when we hear on the news that Israeli tanks are rolling through the cities and refugee camps of the West Bank, we should remember those tanks were made in the United States and purchased by Israel with U.S. aid. The Israeli jets and helicopters used in the assault are American F- 16s, Blackhawks and Apaches. Machine guns, grenade launchers, missiles and bombs -- made in the USA, paid for with our tax dollars -- are being used to crush the Palestinian people. That means we must face two realties:

First, the current Israeli attack on West Bank towns is not a war on terrorism, but part of a long and brutal war against the Palestinian people for land and resources. If Israel is serious about ending terrorism, it would end its 35-year illegal military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Until it demonstrates a willingness to do that, Israeli calls for peace ring hollow and its attempts to achieve security through force will only make it less secure.

Second, Israel's war against the Palestinians would not be possible without U.S. military and economic support -- $3 billion a year in direct aid. While the whole world stands against Israel's occupation, our government provides the political and diplomatic cover that allows Israel to flout international law. Specific Israeli policies sometimes draw mild criticisms from U.S. leaders, and those criticisms have grown stronger in recent days as Israel has ignored calls for a pullback of forces. But Israel can continue to ignore the international consensus -- and the U.N. Security Council resolutions calling on it to end the occupation -- because of U.S. support.

U.S. officials recently have distanced themselves from the extreme violence of the Sharon government and the Likud Party, but it is folly to think all would be fine if only a Labor Party government were in power. The differences between the two major parties in Israel are more of style than substance. Take the question of settlements in the occupied territories.

We are told repeatedly that Israel desperately wants peace. If that is true, why has the number of Israeli settlers living in the West Bank and Gaza almost doubled since the Oslo peace process began nearly a decade ago? Given that those settlements are one of the most serious obstacles to a peaceful solution, why would the Israeli governments -- Labor and Likud alike -- expand settlements in territory it illegally occupies during a so-called peace process?

The ultimate solution to the conflict in the Middle East is a regional peace conference under an international banner that takes seriously international law. There must be regional arms control, which should be part of a movement to reduce the insane levels of armaments globally (of which the United States is the leading salesperson). The most important contribution the United States could make is to stop blocking that process.

But right now, the United States can help defuse the immediate crisis by using the leverage its aid to Israel provides. We the American people should pressure our government to make a clear statement: Israel must not only end its current brutal offensive but also must take meaningful steps to end the occupation, and the United States must withdraw support from Israel until it agrees to do so.

If we fail to do that, then we cannot escape the knowledge that Americans are partly responsible for the next missile fired into a Palestinian town, the next shell lobbed into a Palestinian home, the next Israeli bullet that cuts down an innocent Palestinian.

Jensen is a professor of journalism at the University of Texas at Austin and author of Writing Dissent: Taking Radical Ideas from the Margins to the Mainstream. He can be reached at rjensen@uts.cc.utexas.edu
http://www.alternativenews.org/


  

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JoePWed Apr-17-02 10:18 PM
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#23. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 21)


          

Hal, are you trying to imitate the man talking to the brick wall?

  

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scaramoucheWed Apr-17-02 10:34 PM
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#25. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 21)
Wed Apr-17-02 10:35 PM

  

          

I don't think you guys get the point. Enough of the 'Who's at fault", that will never, and thus far, has not, bought peace. Meanwhile thousands on both sides will die while the two parties argue over who's to blame.

Israel will never listen to the US, and why should they. According to the American system, the leader of the most powerful nation in the world, cannot do a thing without Senate approval and they support Israel.

Besides Israel is fighting for survival and the Palestinians, quite rightly, do not trust the US. The Europeans don't count, in my view. They just don't have any balls, except maybe the British. The rest are too afraid, either of offending the Arabs (economic reasons) or offending the Israelis ( WW2 guilt).

It really is a pity the US has a President that most countries consider a "dufus". That is not being disrespectful. Its the truth. Colin Powell, knows whereof he speaks, but he is outnumbered by the other moronic Cabinet members. It requires a Statesman, who commands respect, to bring the two sides together and Bush aint it. The elder Bush might have pulled it off.


Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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hal9000Wed Apr-17-02 10:54 PM
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#26. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 25)


          

In the past ten years Israel has doubled the number of settlements in the occupied territories. In the last year Israel has built 34 new settlements. There is a double standard going on here and a failure to recognize that most of the violence has come from Israel. Five times as many Palestinians (unarmed civilians) have been killed by Israel in the occupied territories.

Israel is established on 78% of the territory of Palestine. Nearly a million Palestinians lost their homes so Israel could exist. The suicide bombings should be condemned. But so should the acts of Israel's violence against the Palestinians, shooting at journalist and blocking access for food and medical supplies to Janin.

  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 03:55 AM
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#37. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 26)


  

          

There is NO territory of Palestine. The Arabs refused to set up the Palestinian state in 1948, preferring to attack and attempt to destroy Israel. After that, the land became part of Jordan and Egypt.

Simple choices really. The land called "the occupied territories" either belongs to Israel by right of conquest, or it belongs to Egypt and Jordan (who don't bother to ask for it back). It isn't Palestine.



  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 04:33 AM
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#40. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 37)


          

"... Simple choices really. The land called "the occupied
territories" either belongs to Israel by right of conquest..."

This "right of conquest" concept is totally misleading. Without US support and support of Britian and France... Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon would have destroyed Israel.

It's all about oil, geopolitical positioning and control of trade routes.

  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 05:04 AM
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#41. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 40)


  

          

Yeah, right.

Here's what you don't get, bumblebrain.

In 1948, Israel won. By themselves.

In 1967, Israel won. Again, by themselves. With outdated equipment and undermanned. Read a detailed history of the war, and marvel at what the Israelis did and accomplished. The Sinai and the Golan Heights were taken by Israeli soldiers, not the USA, not the UK. Israelis.

In 1973, Israel would have turned the middle-East to glass if it had come to that.

Today, Israel is the most powerful military force in the region, and the combined armies of all the nations you listed would lose again, just as they have before. If they did come close to success, Israel would turn Cairo, Mecca, etc. into glass. Of course, now they don't want to play that game anymore, preferring to sacrifice the Palestinians (and who can blame them, the Palestinians attempted to overthrow Hussein, and have been ejected from Jordan, Egypt and Syria).



  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 07:32 AM
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#45. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 41)


          

Bumblebrain! I love it.

There's no question as to the superiority of the Israeli military, especially its intelligence, very impressive.

However, since 1949 the US controlled United Nations has constantly intervened in either negotiations or peace keeping forces precluding a war or wars of any significant duration. The United States and the Soviet Union directly intervened in 1973 resulting in Israeli forces withdrawl from the Suez Canal. Further U.S. invlolvement resulted in an interim agreement between Egypt and Israel in 1975, which provided for another Israeli withdrawal in the Sinai, a limitation of forces, and three observation stations staffed by U.S. civilians in a UN-maintained buffer zone between Egyptian and Israeli forces.

The fact is, Israel would have eventually been assimilated if not for US military financial aid and influence with the UN and EU and now Russia. All surrounding Arab states would have eventually dominated Israel through years of continued warfare and population numbers alone.

For Israel to turn Mecca into glass would be suicide which is really where we are all headed anyway.




  

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jasonlevineThu Apr-18-02 07:44 AM
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#46. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 45)


  

          

However, since 1949 the US controlled United Nations has constantly intervened in either negotiations or peace keeping forces precluding a war or wars of any significant duration. The United States and the Soviet Union directly intervened in 1973 resulting in Israeli forces withdrawl from the Suez Canal.

So what happened from 1948, when Israel was founded, until 1973, the first instance you give of US intervention? Israel won the 1967 war without US help. In fact, the Soviet Union was supplying the Arabs with arms while Kuwait, Alegeria, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq supplied troops and arms. Israel beat all that back on their own. (Even France, an Israeli arms supplier embargoed Israel during the war.) The "US helped Israel" claim was made by the Arab nations without any proof to back it up in order to cover up the fact that they were beaten so badly. (Why admit to their populace how they were beaten when you can blame bad, old America instead?)

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 08:25 AM
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#48. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 46)
Thu Apr-18-02 08:26 AM

          

In October 1956, Israel invaded the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula at the same time that operations by French and British forces against Egypt were taking place in the Suez Canal area. Israeli forces withdrew from the Gaza Strip and Sinai in March 1957, after the United Nations established the UN Emergency Force (UNEF).

In 1967 a cease-fire was intiated by UN Security Council Resolutions 235 and 236. On November 22, 1967, the Security Council adopted Resolution 242, which called for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in 1967 in return for the end of all states of belligerency, respect for the sovereignty of all states in the area, and the right to live in peace within secure, recognized boundaries.


  

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SonnyThu Apr-18-02 07:47 AM
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#47. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 45)


  

          

suicide which is really where we are all headed anyway.

How about you testing your theory for us? You've clearly commited intellectual suicde already so why stop now.






  

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No_OneThu Apr-18-02 08:25 AM
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#49. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 45)


          

How refreshing to be gone for a while and come back to find Hal9000 as messed up as always. Some things never change
First, if the US controlled the UN as you suggest, the world would not be as messed up as it always becomes when the UN steps in. Make no mistake, there certainly is a place in the world for a United Nations, but that place is not on the battlefield, or anywhere near it. After the good guys have been sorted out from the bad guys, and in this world that is usually by force of arms, then the UN can step in and try to help out in their muddled way. As it is now, when the UN screws up, it looks to the US and NATO to bail it out. I've been there, and seen the troops from around the world wearing their baby blue berets, trying to get things done with little or no support from the higher-ups in the UN (usually political appointees).
I admire their effort, but the people they are trying to help always wonder why is it that the Americans ultimately show up with the stuff they need to get their lives back together and put their country back on its feet, while the UN people usually can't get fuel for their own vehicles. The UN has very little effect in situations like Israel, it has had very little historically, while the US has at least tried. I believe it was the US, not the UN, who backed off the British and French forces after their drop on Suez in the fifties.

Your use of the word "assimilation" sounds slightly ominous, you've been watching too much Star Trek.

And BTW, those OPs in the Sinai provided for in the agreement brokered by Jimmy Carter, are not wholly staffed by civilians, at least not at South Base where I had the misfortune to spend 6 months. The US Army, primarily infantry from Ft. Campbell (remember the crash in Gander) provides the meat of the MFO. The Multinational Force and Observers are still there, forgotten by most people, and spend a lot of time watching camels, no one else would want to go there. }>

I think Dave was entirely justified in pulling your memory banks last year.

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 09:45 AM
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#52. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to No_One (Reply # 49)


          

>And BTW, those OPs in the Sinai provided for in the
>agreement brokered by Jimmy Carter, are not wholly staffed
>by civilians, at least not at South Base where I had the
>misfortune to spend 6 months. The US Army, primarily
>infantry from Ft. Campbell (remember the crash in Gander)
>provides the meat of the MFO.

Direct US military involvement under the guise of US civilian involvement illustrates my point even further.

  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 03:18 PM
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#64. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 52)


  

          

What guise? Are you seriously the idiot you seem to be?



  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 03:14 PM
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#63. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 45)


  

          

"and three observation stations staffed by U.S. civilians in a UN-maintained buffer zone between Egyptian and Israeli forces."

Hmmmmm...having done MFO duty, let me set you straight on a few things.
One, the "buffer" zone is not maintained by the UN, as a matter of fact, the UN has nothing to do with it. That's why members of the MFO wear orange berets, not blue berets.
Two, the staff of the MFO is not US civilians. It is a multi-national military organization built around a US Infantry Battalion, and supported by a number of other nations, including the French.



  

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EthanThu Apr-18-02 05:40 PM
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#67. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 40)


  

          

>"... Simple choices really. The land called "the occupied
>territories" either belongs to Israel by right of
>conquest..."
>
>This "right of conquest" concept is totally misleading.
>Without US support and support of Britian and France...
>Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon would have destroyed
>Israel.
>
>It's all about oil,
Israel is the largest producer of oil in the middle east, Not
> geopolitical positioning
The US and Russia have given up all of their aircraft carriers and their relatonships with Jordan and Egypt are insignificant. The US needs Israel as a base, NOT
and control of
>trade routes.
Next time you want to travel from China or France to Africa by camel you are invited to stop by. I don't have enough water for a large caravan of camels but I can handle, say 5 or 6.

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 11:18 PM
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#71. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 67)
Thu Apr-18-02 11:37 PM

          

Remember the Persian Gulf? It has two-thirds of the world's proven oil reserves. OPEC countries have 67% of these reserves, with Saudi Arabia having 25%. Geologists believe that the Middle East also contains most of the world's undiscovered oil. Therefore, OPEC is expected to have long-term control over world oil supplies and prices.

Gee! It's right near Israel.

Also, I suggest you look at a map and review the significance of the Suez Canal and its relationship to the Mediterranean, the Red Sea and Indian Ocean, i.e., trade routes. Yes I know it's in Egypt, figure it out.

"... {In the late 1950's} Britain, France, and Israel began plotting to take back the canal and overthrow Nasser as well. Britain, France and Israel united in secret in what was to become known as the tripartite collusion, something that they denied publicly for many years. Israel opted to participate in the plans against Egypt in order to gain favor in the sight of western nations because the small developing nation was in constant fear of being overrun by Arab nations.

Arrangements were made for Israel to make the initial invasion of Egypt and overtake one side of the Suez Canal. The British and French attempted to follow the Israeli invasion with diplomacy, but they were unsuccessful, so they were forced to send in troops to occupy the canal. However, the action on the part of the tripartite collusion was not viewed in favor by the US or the Soviet Union since their intervention signified their predominance in the area.

The troops were withdrawn from the Canal Zone in December under the direction of the United Nations. The canal was returned to Egypt's possession and reparations were paid by Egypt under the supervision of the World Bank. Overall the actions of the tripartite collusion were not at all beneficial to the democratic plight in the Cold War because they drew Nasser and Egypt into further relations with the USSR. The fight over the canal also laid the groundwork for the Six Day War in 1967 due to a lack of a peace settlement following the 1956 war..."

http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/MiddleEast/SuezNat.html

  

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EthanThu Apr-18-02 11:45 PM
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#72. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 71)


  

          

I read yours now you read mine.
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/Suez_War.html
Nasser trained armed and sent terrorists to operate out of Jordan and Gaza. He closed the straits of Tiran which control shipping to The Southern port of Eilat and also closed the Suez canal to Israeli shipping, cutting Israel off from the east. Best the article sited be read, it's short and to the point.
I just wish I could begin to understand what motivates our friend Hal9000.

Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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hal9000Fri Apr-19-02 12:13 AM
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#73. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 72)


          

"I just wish I could begin to understand what motivates our friend Hal9000."

The truth. And I will read your article and get back to you. Thank you for posting it.

  

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ShellyFri Apr-19-02 12:32 AM
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#76. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 73)


  

          

Hal, I have been reading your crap here for days and kept silent because we need someone here to represent the lunatic fringe. You would not recognize truth if you tripped over it. All that interests you is bottom feeding the lunatic fringe party line that seems to feed your warped prejudices. As it happens I was deeply involved in the Suez mess when I was in military intelligence. I am unable to discuss what I know to be the truth of those times, but you are so far off base you are not even in the ballpark. Now why don't you just drop this and go write your next essay on why Hitler didn't really kill any Jews.

Shelly

  

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MeehowskiFri Apr-19-02 12:53 AM
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#78. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 76)


  

          

Well said Shelly.....

quot ho.mi.nes, tot sen.ten.ti.ae

"There are as many opinions as there are men.

Be well...

Meehowski

  

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hal9000Fri Apr-19-02 03:25 AM
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#83. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 76)
Fri Apr-19-02 03:27 AM

          

I'm not questioning your background, but anyone could dispute the specific activities of a historical event and claim they could not disclose those specific activities because of an intelligence issue, rendering the objection meaningless in the context of a discussion.

As an official moderator of this forum who openly participates in name calling, I wonder who's predjudices here are warped.

There are plenty of other people in here that have already fulfilled that juvenile role for you and I would say to you, either ignore my posts, bar me from the forum or disagree with me with an opinion.

Leave name calling where it belongs, with children.

  

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scapegoatFri Apr-19-02 10:37 AM
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#87. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 76)


          


> "I was in military intelligence".

Isn't "military intelligence" an oxy-moron?


  

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AlFri Apr-19-02 02:31 AM
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#81. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 73)


  

          

"The truth"

Obviously not.



  

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PointmanFri Apr-19-02 12:14 AM
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#74. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 72)


          

Ethan, I think it's something in the water.

To read some convoluted reasoning, check out this site:

www.memri.org a website that translates into English what the Arab reporters, religious and political leaders are telling the Arab community.

Also see this:
http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi? page=subjects&Area=middleeast&ID=SP34402

February 10, 2002 No.344
Bin Laden Lieutenant Admits to September 11 and Explains Al-Qa'ida's Combat Doctrine

Doesn’t this disprove the Arab allegation that the Jews were behind the 9/11 attacks?





Pointman

  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 12:26 AM
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#99. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 72)
Sat Apr-20-02 01:07 AM

          

I read you article. It seems recorded history of the 1956 Suez battle has produced many different accounts of those events and I find it interesting that your article omitted mentioning the Gaza Raid of 1955. You do remember that don't you? Where the Israeli army attacked Egyptian military outposts in Gaza and thirty-nine Egyptians were killed, many while they were sleeping. Until then, this had been Israel's least troublesome frontier.

While Nasser spent money building Egypt's infrastructure, he neglected to keep up with Israeli's arms escalation. After the Gaza Raid, Egypt's citizens rioted in the streets putting pressure on Nasser to arm his country. Nasser received arms from Russia only because the US turned Nasser down. Why does Israel believe it is the only Middle East country that has the right to arm itself.

It wasn't until after the Gaza Raid (which some claim was a set up in collusion with Britian and France) that Nasser nationalized the Suez and his decision to nationalize wasn't based exclusively on Israel's actions. Britian had 10,000 troops in Egypt and Nasser wanted them out.

And BTW, Nasser cannot be held respsonsible for every act of terrorism just as an American President cannot be held responsible for terroist activities like the Oklahoma bombing.

  

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rabidrobotWed Apr-17-02 11:09 PM
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#28. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 25)


          

Scaramouche, I agree with you. When there is so much hate on both sides it takes someone or something special to make both sides rise above it. There is great skill in beiong a successful mediator and it is one of the most important jobs in the world today. I dont in my heart believe that ANY race or group of people has the suicidal desire to perpetuate a situation which sees both groups of peoples unable or afraid to walk the streets. Israelis Arabs want to be able to walk the streets without fear. Northern Ireland was a bearpit of sectarian hatred for many years, and that hate hasnt just evaporated, but things are changing slowly but surely. The two communities are talking to each other and there is far more optimism than there was.
What's the alternative? The two sides were so wrapped up in their hatred that it took skillful persistent brokering by the US and UK governments to get them around the table to negociate. Yes, US and UK governments negociating with the IRA and LOYALISTS. Terrorists.
Mediation is a part of civilised life, whether it is neighbour disputes or governments. Unfortunately, like you say Scaramouche, it will take someone with a bit more vision than poor old George.



  

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MeehowskiWed Apr-17-02 11:29 PM
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#29. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to rabidrobot (Reply # 28)


  

          

What the world needs now.......is......a miracle.

Meehowski

  

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hal9000Wed Apr-17-02 11:35 PM
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#30. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to rabidrobot (Reply # 28)
Wed Apr-17-02 11:37 PM

          

If you look at the Janin camp, Nablus, Tulkarm, Ramallah and the rest of the West Bank and Gaza, what has destroying the entire water system, destroying thousands of acres of agricultural fields, uprooting hundreds of thousands of fruit trees and olive trees, destroying the sewage system, imposing a closure that impoverishes the Palestinian people and destroying the electrical infrastructure got to do with terrorism? Nothing. It has to do with weakening the Palestinian infrastructure in order to keep them weak and in the end to defeat them.

What does defeat mean? This is an important point. The issue is not a Palestinian state. The issue is a viable truly sovereign Palestinian state and that's a distinction the Israelis don't understand. If they think giving up settlements in heavily populated Palestinian areas like Nablus but keeping settlements near Jerusalem is a solution then they do not understand the difference between a Palestinian state and a viable Palestinian state. If Israel has complete control over Jerusalem, Palestinians will never view that type of concession as a viable Palestinian state.

Everyone must understand that Israel is not going to defeat the Palestinians, period and that is what Sharon believes. What Sharon calls terrorists infrastructure is in fact an infrastructure that has nothing to do with terrorism it has only to do with continuing the occupation.

The dividing line on the sides of this conflict is not between Israelis and Palestinians but between Israelis and Palestinians on one side who want a just peace for both people and people on the other side that believe one side or the other can win or deny the claims of the other.


  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 03:52 AM
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#36. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 25)


  

          

Ah, yes...a Neville Chaimberlain perhaps?

As long as Arafat remains alive, no peace will be brokered in the Middle East.



  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 03:49 AM
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#35. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 21)


  

          

Ever look to see how much economic aid we give to Egypt? Jordan?

Oh, and the tanks? They're called Merkava IIs. They are Israeli products. World class, too.



  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 04:06 AM
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#38. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 35)


          

Yeah, its called playing both sides of the fence. Like the 7-year Iran-Iraq war. US aid went to Saddam Hussein while Iran was vilified. Yet in the 50s the CIA supported the Shah to take power in Iran which led to a Islamic revolution in 1979 where he was overthrown. As soon as a popular government came into power and not a puppet dictator, the US, fearing that some of this oil may go to the local population, chose to support Saddam Hussein.

He was given support with developing weapons of mass destruction as well and its use against his own people and against Iranians was downplayed by the US. But once Iraq invaded Kuwait, then the US support reversed.

If the energy resources had been used to properly capitalize the Middle East to the benefit of all in the region, not just the elite Sheiks and the West, then the world today would be a totally different one. Instead, the suppressed Arab populations have become increasingly anti-West, and, in particular, anti-US.

  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 05:07 AM
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#42. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 38)


  

          

Hal,

You are really clueless about realpolitik, aren't you? Have you actually ever bothered to read any history and look at it from the point of view of the time?

Look up cynic. That picture is you.



  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 06:29 AM
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#43. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 42)


          

>You are really clueless about realpolitik, aren't you? Have
>you actually ever bothered to read any history and look at
>it from the point of view of the time?

Lol! Sure. That's precisley what I've done. Waged war from any point of view is always about the control of real estate and resources for the perpetuation of wealth and power in the hands of a few.


  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 03:21 PM
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#65. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 43)


  

          

Cynic - one who attributes all actions to selfish motives (See Hal)



  

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DJCFri Apr-19-02 11:48 AM
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#91. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 35)


  

          

I find it ironic that the fighting going on is being done by the Descendents of Abraham/ Ibrahim, from his loins poured forth the Isaac's and Ishmahel's descendents the Arabs and Jews. For God/Allah said that from Abraham/Ibrahim a great nation would descend from his loins. They are now fighting to see which one is a great nation that Allah/God foretold to them. They both worship the same god, many traditions are the same. The Koran says that Muslims are to respect the people of the book. I believe if you look at Mohammed's life you will see Jews saved him. What a shame it is a family fight and I do not think the God I know is on the side either of the combatants. The Christians must stand on the side of Israel for does not the bible say the Jews are chosen people of God or did God say the descendants of Abraham/Ibrahim would be his chosen people?. If they could sit down long enought they would find more in common than they thought.

  

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jasonlevineFri Apr-19-02 05:37 PM
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#96. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to DJC (Reply # 91)


  

          

I do find it ironic also. Jews and Muslims (true muslims, not the radical kind) are closer than Jews and Christians. Both Jews and Muslims don't believe in having "graven images," both avoid pork (in fact, many American Muslims look for the kosher symbol on packages and meat because they know it won't contain any pork products), both pray facing a holy site (Jerusalem for Jews, Mecca for Muslims). It's really a shame that the radicals amoung the Muslims have been preaching hatred for the Jews for so long and attempting to hijack Islam. Hopefully the day will soon come when Jews and Muslims forge a lasting peace so their decendents can look back and say "What the hell was wrong with our grandparents that they fought so much." (Unfortunately, I don't see that day coming for quite some time.)

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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OrchidBillThu Apr-18-02 04:13 AM
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#39. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)


          

This thing was emailed to me about three weeks ago. I tossed it then....I toss it now. I wish I hadn't checked in on this thread.

I've been there, done that....on both sides of the Jerico. Both have a position worthy of debate.......neither of ridicule.

OB

  

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GroganThu Apr-18-02 08:47 AM
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#50. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to OrchidBill (Reply # 39)


  

          

Well then why did you? You came in here just to bleat like a wounded sheep?

Everyone is worthy of ridicule...

>This thing was emailed to me about three weeks ago. I
>tossed it then....I toss it now. I wish I hadn't checked in
>on this thread.
>
>I've been there, done that....on both sides of the Jerico.
>Both have a position worthy of debate.......neither of
>ridicule.
>
>OB

Grogan

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 10:51 AM
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#53. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)
Thu Apr-18-02 10:57 AM

          

April 17, 2002
Jenin Refugee Camp:
Amnesty International Calls for Immediate International Humanitarian Assistance

Speaking from inside Jenin Refugee Camp, Amnesty International delegate Javier Zuniga said, "This is one of the worst scenes of devastation I have ever witnessed. It is almost impossible to conceive that what was once a town is now a lunar landscape. There is a real possibility that people are still alive under the rubble of their former homes, one of our colleagues from a local human rights organisation received a phone call from a family of 10 trapped below ground and asking for help, yet there is no evidence of concerted efforts to search for and rescue survivors."

Amnesty International is calling for immediate and unimpeded access for humanitarian assistance wherever it is needed. "If this was an earthquake the international community would be asked for and give urgent help. It is shocking that the authorities have not asked for help and that the international community is not offering it. Let this be the wake up call that help is needed now to save what life there is left."

Another member of the Amnesty International Delegation Professor Derrick Pounder this morning gained access to the Jenin Government Hospital. Professor of Forensic Medicine at Dundee University, Professor Pounder is now conducting autopsies to clarify the cause of death of those bodies in the hospital. Scores more bodies are believed to remain in the refugee camp, mainly in the rubble of bulldozed houses.

Amnesty International had been denied access to the hospital but this was changed this morning. Access to the camp had also been denied but the check points were removed this morning allowing limited access.

http://www.aiusa.org/news/2002/israel04172002.html

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 11:34 AM
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#55. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 53)
Thu Apr-18-02 11:39 AM

          

Read what the US mainstream media won't tell you:

April 18 2002

The Sidney Morning Herald
Correspondent Paul McGeough reports from Jenin.

"... The smell of death hangs in the air around some buildings still standing and from sections of the rubble. When the Herald tried to take aid workers to a building in which camp residents said there were five dead men, Israeli soldiers ordered us away at gunpoint..."

"... In the rubble at the centre of the camp, reminiscent of pictures of the destruction of Dresden, two human feet protruded from the rubble. And as I spoke to an aid worker in a nearby alley, he pointed out that on the ground, between my feet, was a human foot - which he presumed had been part of a nearby blob that he said was a corpse mangled beyond recognition when it had been run over by an Israeli tank...."

Go here for full story:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/04/17/1019020661483.html

  

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doctormidnightThu Apr-18-02 11:42 AM
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#56. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 55)


  

          

Hal, i found your backpack full of prescription drugs while I was out getting trashed tonight. I put them in the mail, hopefully they will reach you before you hurt yourself any more than you already have. BTW, thanks for the birthday present, i haven't laughed this hard since Ropera posted "Dog Pee vs. Dell Monitor".

  

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RoperaThu Apr-18-02 01:02 PM
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#60. "That was a good one, wasn't it?"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 56)


          

:)

  

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golouisThu Apr-18-02 11:47 AM
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#57. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 53)


          

Hal,

Sorry but I couldn't get your link to open. Please check it again.

Since you like actual facts so much try these:

1. Population of Jenin City 26,650 (source: Palestinian Authority official census 1997, published in Population, Housing and Establishment Census 1997 by the Palestinian Women's Institute).

2. Population of Jenin Refugee Camp (near Jenin City but not the same) was 9,104 (same source)

3. The Jenin Refugee Camp was established jointly by the United Nations and Government of Jordan in 1953 (remember Israel only invaded the West Bank in 1967) on an area of 1 square kilometer and has never been allowed to expand in size hence the high building density. The same source lists 1,114 households in the refugee camp with an average family size of 5.6 souls as against the national Palestinian average of 6.1 souls per family.

4. BBC and Sky TV coverage last week from Jenin City showed no damage to buildings there.

5. Most of the civilian population fled the refugee camp by and large only the gunmen remained. Despite massive damage to buildings in the camp the total number of bodies actually seen by any side (TV, press, Palestinian Red Crescent) are only dozens (no mass graves, no piles of unburied bodies, no actual sightings of bodies in rubble) and almost all these of dead wearing military clothes or ammunition webbing.

It is true that a fair number of the 1,604 families may not have homes to return to but that may be a blessing in disguise for them since these homes were small and cramped and the authorities will now have the chance to build them decent housing unlike the conditions forced on them by the UN and Jordan since 1953 and more recently the Palestinian Authority which is repsonsible for management of the area.


Louis

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 12:31 PM
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#58. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to golouis (Reply # 57)


          

You've indicated that you believe some 1600 families (which represents a similar number of homes) have been destroyed and yet you claim last week no homes were destroyed according to BBC and Sky News Reports. More importantly, how does poor housing conditions even remotely justify those homes being demolished with people's possessions and when innocent unarmed civilians may have been in them at the time?

As far as a body count goes, no one has even been allowed in Jenin to examine the area and conduct a complete body count yet! This isn't over yet.

  

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golouisThu Apr-18-02 12:51 PM
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#59. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 58)


          

Hal,

No homes were destroyed in Jenin City according to foreign news reporters.

The damage was in the refugee camp which is a couple of miles away (deliberate policy of the original planners). Please don't confuse the two places or you lose your credibility.

Lots of homes were destroyed completely or partially damaged (not same thing) but definitely not all the homes in the refugee camp (did you see CNN interviews with terrified civilians who had remained there - the inside of their homes according to CNN film footage was not damaged at all).

According to the Palestinian Official News Service on Wednesday, Israel completed its withdrawal from the refugee camp Wednesday midday (EST). Some foreign medical and news teams have been in the camp since late last week - we've all seen footage from there.

A typing error by me - there are 1,114 families who were living in the refugee camp.

I join you in deploring the destruction of homes and property of innocent civilians both in Jenin and anywhere else. I also deplore the use of family homes as gun emplacements by Palestinian gunmen and the booby trapping of these homes to kill Israeli soldiers. These booby traps certainly caused considerable damage to these homes as did Israeli and Palestinian shooting.


Louis

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 08:50 PM
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#68. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to golouis (Reply # 59)
Thu Apr-18-02 08:53 PM

          

First of all, what's Jenin City got to do with anything? Regarding the Jenin Refugee Camp, entire city blocks in the Jenin Camp have been leveled.

>According to the Palestinian Official News Service on
>Wednesday, Israel completed its withdrawal from the refugee
>camp Wednesday midday (EST

"... The BBC's Richard Miron, just outside Jenin, said Israeli forces had pulled back but remained close by ..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937387.stm

"...{Yesterday} Israel invaded two West Bank villages in Bal'a, east of Tulkarm, and Silat al- Harthiyah northwest of Jenin. Israeli forces also sealed off a Palestinian area in East Jerusalem, searched homes and detained at least two people..."

The Palestinian Chronicle
http://palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=2002041805593287

>Some foreign medical and news
>teams have been in the camp since late last week - we've all
>seen footage from there.

Until yesterday, no medical teams have been permitted in Jenin for more that 6 hours at a time. Small groups of some news agencies were escorted by the Isreali army in the camp for brief periods. You've seen recent news footage? What news footage have you seen from inside Jenin and when. What news agency? What date?

>A typing error by me - there are 1,114 families who were
>living in the refugee camp.

You indicated your census figures are from 1997 which is 5 years old.

  

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hal9000Thu Apr-18-02 09:06 PM
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#69. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 68)


          

The BBC - Thusday April 18, 2002
Jenin camp 'horrific beyond belief'

"...A UN envoy has said that the devastation left by Israeli forces in the Jenin refugee camp is "horrific beyond belief".
Terje Roed-Larsen, who toured the West Bank refugee camp on Thursday, said it was "morally repugnant" that Israel had not allowed rescue teams in after the fighting..."

"...An independent forensic expert says evidence suggests that a massacre has taken place..."

Full Story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937387.stm



  

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AlThu Apr-18-02 10:13 PM
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#70. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 69)
Thu Apr-18-02 10:14 PM

  

          

"Mr Roed-Larsen, who is the UN's Special Co-ordinator for the occupied Palestinian territories"

Hmmmmm...so, if the occupied territories disappear, he's out of a job?

"Palestinian claims of an Israeli massacre in the camp have been denied, although British forensic expert Prof Derrick Pounder has said that the evidence points to large numbers of civilian dead.

Prof Pounder is part of an Amnesty International team granted access to Jenin."

Amnesty International also claims that the holding facilities for the prisoners being held in Guantanamo Bay are barbaric. They don't have a good record for accuracy (as a matter of fact, they have an absolutely horrible record).

"Israel launched its assault on Palestinian towns on 29 March after a suicide bomber killed 28 people celebrating the Jewish Pass."



  

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golouisFri Apr-19-02 12:15 AM
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#75. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 68)


          

Well done. You got this one right.

"... The BBC's Richard Miron, just outside Jenin, said Israeli forces had pulled back but remained close by ..."

That confirms what I wrote previously: the Israelis had completed their withdrawal from the Jenin refugee camp. They are now "outside."

Thursday evening the director of the hospital in Jenin confirmed that the Red Cross and his hospital can account for 25 bodies of people killed in the refugee camp in the last ten days.

If you have a more reliable source of information why don't you update the Red Cross at the site?


Louis

  

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WakkoFri Apr-19-02 12:50 AM
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#77. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to golouis (Reply # 75)
Fri Apr-19-02 12:56 AM

  

          

Doesn't say what they were killed from either...
Manipulation of the facts and wording can do anything

"Tell me and I'll forget. Show me and I'll remember. Involve me and I'll learn."

  

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JoePFri Apr-19-02 01:17 AM
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#79. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Wakko (Reply # 77)


          

well. maybe a lot are still under the rubble? Seems a reasonable guess

  

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AlFri Apr-19-02 02:30 AM
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#80. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to JoeP (Reply # 79)


  

          

More likely is there was no massacre.



  

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jasonlevineFri Apr-19-02 03:21 AM
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#82. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 80)


  

          

Can't remember where I heard this so take it with a grain of salt, but when confronted with the obvious lack of bodies/mass graves (as they claimed), the Palestinians turned around and claimed that the Israelis made off with hundreds of bodies. I'm not saying that Israel's military action hasn't resulted in civilian casulties (I'm sure it has, especially with the line between terrorist and civilian so blurry), but I hardly think they made off with hundreds of bodies secretly.

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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hal9000Fri Apr-19-02 03:53 AM
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#84. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 82)


          

Well it won't matter in the end because I've read the UN has a record of all the names of everyone that resides in the refugee camps. So I'm sure international organizations will organize a count and many Palestinian people may end up missing.

  

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EthanFri Apr-19-02 08:27 AM
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#85. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 84)


  

          

It will be tough to work with UN population numbers. The "refugees" have a history of being born and not ever dieing. The Families get their benefits according to numbers of family members. It will be possible to determine approximate numbers by careful interview of objective (is there such) census takers. I have little doubt that the Palestinians would be ordered not to cooperate with such a census.
A small point, hal90000 sent reports of people huddling in their basements, few houses in this region have basements!

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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hal9000Fri Apr-19-02 10:21 AM
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#86. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 85)
Fri Apr-19-02 10:32 AM

          

>It will be tough to work with UN population numbers. The
>"refugees" have a history of being born and not ever dieing.

Yes well, Israel seems to be doing its best to rectify that problem. I wouldn't be suprised if Israel uses that reasoning as an explanation for why there are so many missing Palestinains; you know, that they never existed to begin with.

>It will be possible to determine
>approximate numbers by careful interview of objective (is
>there such) census takers.

I'm sure it won't be the Palestinains who conduct the count for the UN. But how interesting that you imply a "numbers tampering issue" without even knowing who will be doing the counting.

>A small point, hal90000 sent reports of people huddling in
>their basements, few houses in this region have basements!

A big point, they do now!

  

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JoePFri Apr-19-02 10:50 AM
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#89. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 86)
Fri Apr-19-02 10:52 AM

          

"More likely is there was no massacre".

BBC news reports are carrying reports from senior UN officials at the hospital in Jenin who are saying that the number of bodies recovered in no way corresponds to the sheer level of destrucion. Whatever the case, the level of hatred is so high that it is churlish to rule out the possibility that the Israelis simply took out as many as they could . As do the suicide bombers. And 13 days is ample time for cleanup. I think there are international rules of engagement, as there are of humanitarian law. If governments break these, whatever the reasons they give, they are no better than the terrorists.

  

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AlFri Apr-19-02 04:37 PM
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#93. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 86)


  

          

Of course they don't have basements.

As for UN counters, have you ever met a UN citizen?



  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 11:16 AM
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#117. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 85)


          

"The 'refugees' have a history of being born and not ever dieing."

Your words so obviously reflect that of a racist.

  

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NofsdadSat Apr-20-02 11:27 PM
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#131. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 117)
Sat Apr-20-02 11:29 PM

          

<The 'refugees' have a history of being born and not ever dieing."
Your words so obviously reflect that of a racist.">

I've been waiting for that one to drop. I'm surprised I got this far before seeing someone accused of being racist. I'm not getting into this argument. I'm a simple country boy and the first to admit that I don't have an understanding of the overall situation that would allow me to agree or disagree with much of what I have read here but it has been my experience that the word racist only enters any argument or discussion when all rational rationales (Can I say that?) have been exhausted.

Geez that's a scam that has been played everywhere including right here in the good old USA and by all the races that live here. With things so chaotic over there, who wouldn't believe it wasn't being pulled there too?

If you're down to the "R" word as a supposedly rational argument, it's time to give it up.




Tom


Tom



  

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hal9000Sun Apr-21-02 12:08 AM
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#139. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Nofsdad (Reply # 131)


          

Your mindset only applies to those who are afraid to tell the truth. I don't play word games. If you're afraid of the word racist that's your problem.

Anytime someone stereotypes a people and implies that they are liars, lazy, theives and embezzlers, they are a racist.

I don't play politically correct games and won't allow my vocabulary to be imprisoned by someone who does.



  

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golouisFri Apr-19-02 10:44 AM
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#88. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 84)


          

So far the UN has a very short list of missing. This is based on the fact that at least 95% of the civilians fled the refugee camp before the Israeli invasion and their whereabouts are known. Most of the others fled in haste and left no forwarding address.

Your are backing speculation against verifiable facts. Not very sensible.

Louis

  

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JoePFri Apr-19-02 11:13 AM
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#90. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to golouis (Reply # 88)


          

"Your are backing speculation against verifiable facts. Not very sensible"

don't patronise me dude. Until they move the rubble and do a body count it can only BE speculation.

  

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AlFri Apr-19-02 04:40 PM
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#94. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to JoeP (Reply # 90)


  

          

You haven't been in any war zones, have you?



  

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JoePFri Apr-19-02 06:24 PM
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#97. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 94)


          

Al, I lived and worked in Northern Ireland for 5 years, between 1987 and 1992. There was a real climate of fear, but the changes we see now were a result of negociations between top brass in both our governments, and paramilitaries on both sides. It was well known that IRA and Loyalist terrorists and sympathizers lived in certain housing estates and areas, eg Crossmaglen, Belfast and Derry. But, apart from 1972 (BLoody Sunday), there was never a large scale military incursion into a civilian residential area to engage in close quarter combat using heavy machinery . The reason was that this would have inflamed the conflict, and for every IRA man (and sympathizer) killed, ten more would have been created. This was precisely the result of Bloody Sunday when 12 people were killed. IRA membership rocketed immediately in the aftermath. I believe Our actions are not eliminating terrorism ,they are creating it.

  

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AlFri Apr-19-02 09:51 PM
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#98. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to JoeP (Reply # 97)


  

          

Northern Ireland is not Palestine, and the situations are not in the least comparable. So, as I asked, you haven't been in a warzone.



  

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JoePSat Apr-20-02 05:41 AM
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#105. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 98)


          

Northern Ireland is not Palestine so I havent been in a warzone?
Tell that to any citizen of that country, you ignorant acid blooded
circuit board.

  

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AlSat Apr-20-02 06:51 PM
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#120. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to JoeP (Reply # 105)


  

          

I've been in Northern Ireland, Joe. And Israel, and Egypt. And Cambodia, and a few more places. No, Northern Ireland is not a warzone.



  

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hal9000Fri Apr-19-02 11:50 AM
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#92. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to golouis (Reply # 88)
Fri Apr-19-02 12:08 PM

          

>So far the UN has a very short list of missing. This is
>based on the fact that at least 95% of the civilians fled
>the refugee camp before the Israeli invasion and their
>whereabouts are known. Most of the others fled in haste and
>left no forwarding address.
>
>Your are backing speculation against verifiable facts. Not
>very sensible.

What, are you joking?!! The UN just started. You just don't seem to get the picture do you. Jenin has been leveled, get it? There's debris all around, can you say earthquake. There hasn't been any time to do anything. The UN and Red Cross are having a difficult time even attending to the injured let alone begin organizing a body count.

And talk about speculation against verfiable facts, how do you know 95% of the civilians fled the camp and their whereabouts are known. To who? You never provide links for any of your statements of so-called facts.

Wenesday:

BBC "According to the IDF, the whole of Jenin was again a closed military zone and no one apart from soldiers and settlers who lived beyond the checkpoint was getting through."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1936000/1936204.stm

Thursday:

BBC "... The pullout began on Thursday, as a UN envoy visiting the camp described the situation there as 'horrific beyond belief'..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1938000/1938582.stm

BBC "... The professor said recovering the bodies would be difficult because many buildings collapsed during bombardment..."

BBC ".. A British forensic expert who has gained access to the West Bank city of Jenin says evidence points to a massacre by Israeli forces..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937048.stm

  

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AlFri Apr-19-02 04:43 PM
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#95. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 92)


  

          

Hal,

Why don't you take a trip there and verify it for us? Take a digital camera and upload pictures for us all to see. Oh, and dig through those ruins and see what you can find....



  

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CrunkSat Apr-20-02 12:53 AM
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#100. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 95)


  

          

The heck happened here? I call for peace!


(Whoo hoo 100th post!!!) LOL



  

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JoePSat Apr-20-02 05:45 AM
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#106. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 95)


          

why dont you go, motherboard?

  

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AlSat Apr-20-02 06:54 PM
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#121. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to JoeP (Reply # 106)


  

          

Been there, done that. And you?



  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 09:42 PM
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#126. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Al (Reply # 121)


          

Lol!

Is there anywhere you haven't been, or anything you haven't done?

You gotta love it!

  

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AlSat Apr-20-02 09:48 PM
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#127. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 126)


  

          

Sure. I've been in 42 countries. That still leaves plenty I haven't been in, including all of Eastern Europe (except Turkey), Australia, New Zealand, Antartica, parts of South America, and mainland China.

But considering I had already mentioned serving in the MFO, it is pretty obvious that I'd been to the Middle East.



  

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EthanSat Apr-20-02 01:29 AM
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#101. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)
Sat Apr-20-02 01:34 AM

  

          

We will just have to sit back and wait for the final reports. hal9000 is well aware that there is a movement in Israel of Reserve officers and soldiers who are unwilling to continue serving in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. I am 46 I concluded my Military service last year at my 46th birthday. The Israeli army is a citizens army, you can't fart without your neighbors uncle reporting it back home.
During my Military service I considered on many occasions the idea of refusing to participate in certain places or activities and to face the consequences. I did not refuse because of my fear of incarceration, I didn't refuse, because leaving the jobs of arrests and of road blocks and of border crossings to those who did not find it distasteful scared me. I felt I could not leave it up to the type of people that every society has, that would take advantage of the situation and do intolerable deeds. The knowledge that the world has of infractions within the Israeli Army comes from those, whom, like me, could not let things like that happen. That's what happens when you have a citizens army. Today every soldier has his cell phone and communication is uninhibited by censors and the such. The truth will soon be known and will be reported on the back pages of the same "newspapers" that reported rumors as facts on their front pages, that printed interviews with unreliable sources. Our draftees finish their 3 years service and then travel the world freely, their families are not hostages and they are free to say and report every thing the have seen or done during their service. (They can do that here as well I am just trying to emphasize a point).
Even those sympathetic to us worry about the hatred that we create by defending ourselves. Jews are considered incapable of hatred. Just because we are bombed in our discos and our shopping centers and our buses is no reason for a Jew to hate anybody, only an Arab is capable or allowed to hate. Or so it seems reading the world press. There is something to that. Despite what is happening around us we are still seeking paths to peace with our coinhabitors of the region.

I will not lay down and die so that the hal9000's of the world will maybe love me.

Ethan


Ps I really enjoyed your joke Shelly

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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TrebuchetSat Apr-20-02 02:03 AM
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#102. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 101)
Sat Apr-20-02 02:59 AM

          

Ethan, no one would expect you to die so HAL9000 and his ilk will love you. He is so steeped in his pro-Palestinian bias that he seems incapable of recognizing that the Arabs are the aggressors here. His understanding of geo-politics is laughably simplistic, only a complete fool would believe the US supports Israel because of "all the oil in the region".

The major oil-producing fields are all in other parts of the Middle East, the only sizable oil fields Israel ever had were in the Sinai, and Israel gave them back to Egypt when they made peace. We support Israel because they are a fellow Judeo (Christian) nation, and are the only democracy in the region. The only nation in the Middle East where Palestinians can be citizens and vote is...ironically...Israel.

IT is notable that HAL places so much trust in UN reports, the UN as a body has been consistently hostile to Israel for decades. And notice that HAL9000 never bothers to mention the explosives labs and weapons caches the Israelis found, the booby traps, and the fact that almost all the Palestinean bodies recovered so far have been young armed men. Militants, in other words.

Personally, I think the Israeli Defence Force showed great restraint. I think they would have been entirely justified bulldozing the entire Jenin camp and setting up a cleared fire zone between them and the Palestinians.

Terrorism is never justifiable, for any cause and by anybody. Unfortunately, the bulk of Muslims in the Middle East don't seem to recognize that.


UNITED DEVICES PC911 TEAM MEMBER

  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 06:19 AM
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#110. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 102)
Sat Apr-20-02 06:20 AM

          

HAL9000 never bothers to mention the explosives labs and weapons caches the Israelis found, the booby traps, and the fact that almost all the Palestinean bodies recovered so far have been young armed men. Militants, in other words."
-----------------------------------------------------
As I have PREVIOUSLY posted on this thread, I believe all terrorist activity should be condemned, that includes Israeli terrorist activity as well. You label me a pro-Palestinian because I oppose an Israeli Military occupation, a military dictatorship that refers to themselves as a "Defense Force." What are you defending when you destroy an entire water system, thousands of acres of agricultural fields, uproot hundreds of thousands of fruit trees and olive trees, destroy the sewage system, destroy the electrical infrastructure and impoverish the Palestinian people. What has all that got to do with terrorism? Nothing! It has to do with weakening the Palestinian people as a whole. Ethnic cleansing pure and simple.

You are the quintessential embodiment of American and Israeli biased media propaganda, a puppet, another talking head added to the existing legions of unconscious, sleep walking Americans bent on blindly defending American foreign policy and those in polictical power without really having the faintest idea what's going on. Anyone not agreeing with you and your kind is labeled a fanatic.

Well I've got news for you:

"A fanatic is a man who consciously
over compensates a secret doubt.
-- Aldous Huxley

  

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TrebuchetSat Apr-20-02 06:53 AM
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#111. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 110)


          

>What are you defending when you destroy an entire water system, thousands of acres of agricultural fields, uproot hundreds of thousands of fruit trees and olive trees, destroy the sewage system, destroy the electrical infrastructure and impoverish the Palestinian people. What has all that got to do with terrorism? Nothing! It has to do with weakening the Palestinian people as a whole. Ethnic cleansing pure and simple.<

What I don't see is any evidence that the Israelis have done any of these things. What is your source for this? Palestinean press releases? Like they don't lie every time they open their mouths! And guess what? When you blast a building to suppress snipers, pipes break! Buildings collapse! Imagine that!


UNITED DEVICES PC911 TEAM MEMBER

  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 08:20 AM
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#113. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 111)


          

>What I don't see is any evidence that the Israelis
>have done any of these things.

Well of course you don't. There's only one reputable source in your limited vision, US mainstream media. Go back to sleep.

  

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AlSat Apr-20-02 06:59 PM
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#122. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 110)


  

          

HAl,

Just curious. Do you have a definition of terrorists? Or do you just toss everyone who does anything bad in the pot?



  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 04:48 AM
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#103. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 101)


          

What makes you think I would request anything of you or any Israeli? You have to live with the decisions you've made in your life, not I.

Right now there are 36 Officers and Soldiers in Military Prisons for refusing to serve in the territories.
16/04/2002.

Currently 425 Israeli Soldiers have signed the following petition:

• We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.
• We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.
• We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.
• We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.
• We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.
• We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.
• We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.
• We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.
• The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

  

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TrebuchetSat Apr-20-02 05:36 AM
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#104. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 103)


          

Considering that the IDF is a conscripted military, the few people that have signed this is meaningless.

There have always been persons who refused to fight in wartime, be they conscientious objectors, pacifists, misguided idealists, or just cowards.

Now ask yourself if any Palestinean men could sign such a document without being executed by the Palestinean Authority?


UNITED DEVICES PC911 TEAM MEMBER

  

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JoePSat Apr-20-02 05:50 AM
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#107. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 104)


          

. "His understanding of geo-politics is laughably simplistic, only a complete fool would believe the US supports Israel because of "all the oil in the region".
GET REAL!!

  

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TrebuchetSat Apr-20-02 06:00 AM
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#109. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to JoeP (Reply # 107)


          

Joe, I'm not certain I understand what point you are trying to make. If America wanted friends in the middle east to control oil, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, or Kuwait would be much more sensible. Any major oil deposits are hundreds of miles away from Israel.

Saying we support Israel because it gives us control over Arab oil is like saying we support the UK because it gives us control over the vineyards of Bordeaux in France.

We support Israel because they're the good guys. It doesn't need to be any more than that.


UNITED DEVICES PC911 TEAM MEMBER

  

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JoePSat Apr-20-02 07:21 AM
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#112. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 109)


          

"Somewhere...over the rainbow... theres a place..."

  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 09:12 AM
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#115. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 109)


          

AGAIN!! As I have PREVIOUSLY posted on this thread:

"Remember the Persian Gulf? It has two-thirds of the world's proven oil reserves. OPEC countries have 67% of these reserves, with Saudi Arabia having 25%. Geologists believe that the Middle East also contains most of the world's undiscovered oil. Therefore, OPEC is expected to have long-term control over world oil supplies and prices.
Gee! It's right near Israel."

Figure it out from there.

  

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AlSat Apr-20-02 07:06 PM
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#124. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 115)


  

          

So, support the one country in the region that doesn't have oil and is the enemy of the countries that do have oil because of oil? Uh-huh...medication time...



  

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JoePSat Apr-20-02 05:54 AM
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#108. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 104)


          

Trebuchet. Go back to the farm and kill some chickens.

  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 08:53 AM
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#114. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 104)


          

>the few people that have signed this is meaningless.

I doubt the wives, children and families of those Israeli soldiers who gave up their freedom to stand up for their beleifs would share your perception of their imprisonment as "meanignless."

>There have always been persons who refused to fight in
>wartime, be they conscientious objectors, pacifists,
>misguided idealists, or just cowards.

Did you know that people cheered in the streets for Hitler? I'll bet there was someone in the crowd that echoed your very words.

  

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AlSat Apr-20-02 07:01 PM
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#123. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 103)


  

          

You do realize that the IDF is made up of 30 divisions? The numbers you are quoting are statistically insignificant.



  

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EthanSat Apr-20-02 09:57 AM
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#116. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)
Sat Apr-20-02 10:29 AM

  

          

I think it is time for this thread to come to an end.

I slept well last night knowing that the real people understand and are behind us here.

The pc911 family is great. I'm sorry we got down to name calling, generally the internet gives us an opportunity to think out a civilized response before posting, thus avoiding name calling. Some people do not merit direct response although sometimes the issues brought up by them can be addressed.

I know the 911 family is the best place to come for computer advice and the best OT on the web.

HAVE A NICE WEEKEND

Ethan


PS

One more thing by someone more elequent then I. Maybe some of you, who are in the position, can make up for this canceled order


The Israeli company "Radix" received a cancellation from a European
(Denmark) customer. As a response to the cancellation notice, the
Israeli manger decided to answer.
-------------------------------------------
From: Jens Peter Hansen
Email: jh@sid.dk
Phone: +45 86804050
Message: To the Manager (Radix- Israel)



Just now we're ready to buy 60 pieces off your "Radix protector net
solution."



But for the moment, when the Israeli militaire is behaving so rough in
the Palestinian Areas, nor I or my Union feel that it's is right to make
business with companies from your contry.



We hope that this ugly war vil stop soon - and also we hope that Israel
and Palestine will agree on peace.



Sincerely Yours



Jens Peter Hansen
SID Generel Workers Union
Langsøhus Trainingscenter
Vestre Ringvej 51
DK-8600 Silkeborg
Denmark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Response letter by Radix:



Dear Jens Peter Hansen



Regardless of the fact that seven years after the Oslo agreement most of
the Palestinians live under full political and economical control of
Yasser Arafat, the Palestinians dare to claim that their brutal terror
attacks against Israeli civilians is a result of living under Israeli
occupation!!!



You buy this nonsense; you blame Israel for defending itself against the
most brutal terrorism campaign against civilians the world ever saw.
Your heavy pressure is aimed toward Israel instead of the terrorists.



I hate to say that my friend but you SUPPORT TERROR!



Since I believe that you are a honest person and I don't really think
that you mean to support terror or harm Israel, I would like to inform
you few things that you might forgot but your media do not bother to
remind you.



18 months ago, Palestinian leader - Mr. Yasser Arafat rejected Israel's
offer to get full control on 97% of the land he claimed plus alternative
land for the remain 3%. 100% of the land he claims!! This offer is
considered by most of the Israelis as far more than Israel can offer
without risking its security.



The Palestinian responded breaking the peace talks and massive terror
against Israeli civilians.



Any Idea why did the Palestinians reject such generous offer? The answer
is very simple. Yasser Arafat doesn't want a state next to Israel. He
wants a Palestinian state build on the ruins of Israel. A Palestinians
state instead of state of Israel!



Do you support that? Do you really think that Israel should let the
Palestinians build a state on the ruins of Israel? Would you let them
build their state on the ruins of Denmark?



Imagine yourself drinking beer in your lovely Tivoli gardens when a bomb
exploding under the seat spreading your body all over the garden.
Imagine yourself in a situation when a bus exploded in the center of
Copenhagen and you know that your daughter might be on that bus. You
can't reach her because thousands like you trying to reach their
relatives using the same overloaded cellular network. Now imagine that
this is the everyday situation in Denmark for 18 months.



Would you accept such situation? I don't think so.



No mater what is the cause of the Palestinian suffer, my daughter is not
responsible for that. She is not the one that has to be blamed for the
Palestinian suffer and she shouldn't pay the price for Arafat's
megalomania.



Let me clearly state that I have no problem choose between doing
business with you or support my government in its effort to protect my
daughter's life. Because of your support in terror I hold you personally
responsible for my daughter safety.



I really hope that the Israeli government will not bend under your
unfair and unbalanced pressure and continue with the work of rooting out
terror from this region. Yes, even if I lose your business. If we fail,
god forbids, we are doomed and you are next in line.



Yes, Palestinian civilians pays heavy price. Many killed by our military
actions. Yes, we all think that this is terrible. But this is
unfortunately the situation when terrorist find shelters behind
civilians. Labs where bombs are manufactured are located in civilian
neighborhoods. Palestinians "brave" warriors took shelters behind women
and children, in schools and in ambulances.



There is one person to be blamed for the Palestinians suffer - Mr.
Yasser Arafat.
For six years since he got the full control on the Palestinians life,
all he did is building the terror infrastructure, preparing for a war
instead of developing the country and improving the life of his people.



By the way, I didn't notice that any of you or other peace lovers
sensitive Europeans doing anything to stop the terror against Israeli
civilians. Your voice was not heard when terrorist kept exploding
themselves among Israelis in nightclubs, cafes, busses, schools, markets
and hotels in the center of the cities taking huge number innocent
lives. You people woke up only after Israel stood up and start to fight
back.



We will do all it takes to defend ourselves because no one else will do
it for us. Definitely not the Europeans. My mother is still alive to
remind me what she has gone through in your civilized Europe 60 years
ago.



We are going to defend ourselves even if it will disturb your sensitive
soul in Europe and even if cost us to lose some business with you. But I
advise to you to wake up. I know that you do not mean to encourage the
Palestinian to go on with their brutal terror actions against civilians.
Am I wrong?



Best regards



Dov Shoham



General Manager


Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 11:42 AM
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#118. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 116)
Sat Apr-20-02 11:57 AM

          

"I slept well last night knowing that the real people understand and are behind us here."

I'll bet you didn't. I'll tell you one thing though, it would appear that you've come to the right place to to lay your head down and ask for sympathy.

Throughout history there have been tyrants, dictators and oppressors who have murdered, controlled and imprisoned... but they have all fallen, every last one of them. And one day we must all... stand before God, not for judgment, but for understanding.

And don't think for a moment that all here have spoken. The oppressed have become the oppressors. And one day soon, the truth will come to bear.

I honestly wish you luck and in spite of what you may think, I have no ill feelings towards you or any Israeli. I hope you find peace in what ever you do. I have come to learn, that one only needs to forgive themselves.

  

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doctormidnightSat Apr-20-02 11:59 AM
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#119. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 118)


  

          

All the tyrants, opressors, and murderers have fallen? Stalin was in power until 53, and in spite of what the conspiracy freaks say, he died of natural causes. And we still have the same old crew running North Korea, China, Iraq, Iran, etc.... Open your damn eyes, Hal...God doesn't want us to come before him to be judged or forgiven, he wants us to come before him so he can bitch-slap us and say "what the hell were you thinking?"...if you believe in God, that is.

  

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scaramoucheSat Apr-20-02 09:34 PM
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#125. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 119)


  

          

Fidel Castro, Mugabe, Jean Chretien (Canada's PM) are still going strong. }> }>

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 09:58 PM
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#128. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 125)


          

Give it time... Look at history.

  

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AlSat Apr-20-02 10:03 PM
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#129. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 128)


  

          

Good idea. Might notice that tyrants fall and others rise...



  

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sophie tuckerSat Apr-20-02 10:37 PM
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#130. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to scaramouche (Reply # 125)


          

Good nite, Ethan.

sleep safe, and all the best to you.

  

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hal9000Sat Apr-20-02 11:46 PM
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#132. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to sophie tucker (Reply # 130)


          

So Joe P is censored, while a cancer fighting logo is also openly used as a symbol and testament to racism.

Come one, come all, join the winning team as an encouraging and inspirational example to peace and the human race.




  

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NofsdadSat Apr-20-02 11:49 PM
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#133. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 132)


          

Huh???



Tom


Tom



  

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troy614Sat Apr-20-02 11:51 PM
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#134. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 132)


          

Sure,now pick on the turtle.

Join Today And Help Beat Cancer


In memory of Whipat and Tuff

  

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doctormidnightSat Apr-20-02 11:52 PM
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#135. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 132)


  

          

Hal, i changed my mind...send the drugs back, after reading that idiotic statement all i want to do is be convinced your not real.

  

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TrebuchetSat Apr-20-02 11:56 PM
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#136. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to hal9000 (Reply # 132)
Sat Apr-20-02 11:58 PM

          

That's probably the stupidest comment you've ever made here at PC911.

JoeP was censored for his excessive use of the "f" word and his hateful invective towards Jews in the censored post, not for his opinions in general. It was how he said it, not just what he said.

If you think that somehow constitutes racism, you are quite welcome to go to another site. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Don't hurry back either.


UNITED DEVICES PC911 TEAM MEMBER

  

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NofsdadSun Apr-21-02 12:00 AM
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#137. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Trebuchet (Reply # 136)


          

Feller's plumb hung up on this racism thing, ain't he? Tosses it in everytime he runs out of something to say just to keep things going.



Tom


Tom



  

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JoePSun Apr-21-02 12:04 AM
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#138. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to sophie tucker (Reply # 130)


          

Last night I came home at 4 am with an evil skinful of alcohol, and made the big mistake of switching on my computer. Im not going to whip myself here. If everyone is honest our consciences are often like icebergs, and the tip which pokes out is what we choose in rational (civilised) life to show other people, usually as a way of survival so that we can get on with others and not behave like wild animals. Large amounts of alcohol completely destroys this, and last night I allowed the ugly hidden 9 tenths of the submerged iceberg to rise to the surface.
It would be hypocritical of me to say therefore that I did not feel in some part of me what I said. Im not using being drunk as an excuse for that. But the way I expressed it was vile. I am not standing before an imaginary panel of moral judges when I say this, I am standing before myself, and the people of this forum. Those of you who do not like me will be glad to see me come in guns blazing from the hip and for most of the bullets to end up in my own foot and head. So enjoy the glee.
Ethan, in particular I would like to apologize to you, for I
demeaned myself in response to your post. You have shown restraint and decency in yor responses. I wish you well.
I have Jewish blood in my family. My great Grandfather Alfred Mutter came from Germany to Manchester in the 1880's and established a jewellery and watch-making business. Which makes my rant, in the cold light of day, even more painful.
Shelly, I do not "hang out" here (God forbid I do have a life away from this beige box) and will not cease posting unless you or one of your panel excludes me.




  

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ShellySun Apr-21-02 12:08 AM
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#140. "RE: OT - Wailing Wall"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 0)


  

          

I think this has gone on long enough. I began this thread with a bit of humor I wanted to share with my friends. The thread was hijacked by people with an agenda of hate, to spew their bigotry, and in doing so they fouled their own bed. The opportunity for free speech that we value has been given ample opportunity, and the participants have had the chance to reveal their views and been marked by them for good or ill. Since nothing of value is being added to this discussion, I will now lock this thread.

Shelly

  

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