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JordanMon Sep-10-07 02:49 PM
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"MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"


  

          

Do Democrats in Congress agree?

IMO, there can no longer be any doubt that Democrats are scumbags.

Tomorrow--as General David Petraeus provides his Iraq assessment to Congress--the antiwar group MoveOn.org is running a full-page advertisement in the New York Times under the headline: "General Petraeus or General Betray us? Cooking the books for the White House."

Let's be clear: MoveOn.org is suggesting that General Petraeus has 'betrayed' his country. This is disgusting. To attack as a traitor an American general commanding forces in war because his 'on the ground' experience does not align with MoveOn.org's political objectives is utterly shameful. It shows contempt for America's military leadership, as well as for the troops who have confidence in him, as our fellow soldiers in Iraq certainly do.

General Petraeus has served this country for over 35 years with honor, distinction, and integrity. And this is not just about General Petraeus. After all, if General Petraeus is "cooking the books," then the entire military chain of command in Baghdad, and all the staff, military and civilian, who have been working with General Petraeus are complicit, since Petraeus did not write his report in isolation. They are all, apparently, 'betray us.'

MoveOn.org has been working closely with the Democratic congressional leadership --as an article in today's Sunday New York Times Magazine makes clear. And consider this comment by a Democratic senator from Friday's Politico: "'No one wants to call a liar on national TV,' noted one Democratic senator, who spoke on the condition on anonymity. 'The expectation is that the outside groups will do this for us.'

So, veterans who served in Iraq ask the Democratic leaders in Congress: Does MoveOn.org speak for you? Do you agree with MoveOn.org? Or do you repudiate this despicable charge?

MoveOn.org has helped frame the core choice: Whom do we trust to run this war--MoveOn.org and its allies in Congress, or Gen. David Petraeus and his colleagues?

Pete Hegseth is executive director of Vets for Freedom and an Iraq War veteran.

  

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ablibMon Sep-10-07 03:20 PM
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#1. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 0)


  

          

Here is MoveOn.org side of it:

http://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html

Visit the Basement

  

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JordanMon Sep-10-07 03:26 PM
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#2. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 1)


  

          

Did you miss this comment in the article?:
'The expectation is that the outside groups will do this for us.'

  

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ablibMon Sep-10-07 03:30 PM
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#3. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 2)


  

          

No I didn't miss it.


I know what George Soros' role in life is.

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclMon Sep-10-07 03:52 PM
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#4. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 0)


  

          

Quote:
It shows contempt for America's military leadership, as well as for the troops who have confidence in him,
At the moment I don't know much about the man, either good or bad. However I can't see why a person or organisation shouldn't express contempt (if that is what it is) for their country's military leadership if that is genuinely what they feel and I can't see how that then becomes contempt for the serving troops. Military leaders aren't sacred and above criticism unless you live in a military dictatorship.

  

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ShellyMon Sep-10-07 06:06 PM
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#5. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 0)
Mon Sep-10-07 06:08 PM by Shelly

  

          

Move On posts an opinion, and that makes all Democrats bad? I can guarantee you that most Democrats have never heard of Move on. Have you considered seeking professional help? You owe an apology to millions of people, but I doubt that any will be offered.

Shelly

  

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ablibMon Sep-10-07 06:35 PM
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#6. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 5)


  

          

Quote:
I can guarantee you that most Democrats have never heard of Move on



What!? I can guarantee you that most Democrats who are in a tight election with a Republican recieves donatinons from MoveOn.


MoveOn defines "Democrat".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoveOn

Visit the Basement

  

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jasonlevineMon Sep-10-07 07:09 PM
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#7. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 6)


  

          

Even if a politician gets a donation from someone, it doesn't mean that they necessarily know or endorse that group's opinion on everything. In the case of MoveOn, it's not even in OpenSecret's top 20 list of PACs who contribute to Democrats:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/topacs.asp?txt=D&cycle=2006

In fact, it looks like MoveOn contributed less than $785,000 to all federal level candidates in 2006. (Source: http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/lookup2.asp?strID=C00341396&cycle=2006 )

In fact, only 6 candidates got $10K or more from MoveOn:

Candidate Total Contribs
Busby, Francine P (D-CA) $124,620
Farrell, Diane Goss (D-CT) $88,360
Kissell, Larry (D-NC) $10,000
Murphy, Patrick J (D-PA) $88,112
Rodriguez, Ciro D (D-TX) $163,643
Lamont, Ned (D-CT) $251,126

(Source: http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.asp?strID=C00341396&Cycle=2006 )

6 Democrats doesn't equal all Democrats.

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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ablibMon Sep-10-07 07:16 PM
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#8. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 7)


  

          

Ok believe what you want. I've never recieved a donation from MoveOn and I know who they are.


The theory that Democrats don't know about MoveOn is amusing. I literally shouted at my monitor "NO WAY"! when I read that.

Visit the Basement

  

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ShellyMon Sep-10-07 07:29 PM
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#9. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 8)


  

          

Most people in this country are totaly ignorant politically, both Republican and Democrat. They read nothing, they know nothing, and they don't support any candidate, and they do not vote.

Shelly

  

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bobwMon Sep-10-07 09:42 PM
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#11. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 9)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Most people in this country are totaly ignorant politically, both Republican and Democrat. They read nothing, they know nothing, and they don't support any candidate, and they do not vote.


Is that a fact?


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ablibMon Sep-10-07 09:57 PM
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#14. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to bobw (Reply # 11)


  

          

Quote:
Is that a fact?


Yes it is. Approximately 102 million people vote. Our population is over 300 million.



Is 2/3 a majority?

Visit the Basement

  

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JordanMon Sep-10-07 10:01 PM
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#15. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 14)


  

          

How many are eligible to vote? Only a portion the 300 million.

  

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ablibMon Sep-10-07 10:03 PM
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#16. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 15)


  

          

I was just using quick simple numbers. Do you need me to break out the hard numbers to prove the fact that voter turnout is low in America?

Visit the Basement

  

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jasonlevineTue Sep-11-07 12:14 AM
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#20. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 16)


  

          

Just to give some hard numbers. In 2004, there were 221,256,931 eligible voters. Of those, 174,800,000 registered and 122,294,978 voted. In other words, only 55.3% of the eligible voters voted.

- Jason Levine
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bobwMon Sep-10-07 10:28 PM
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#17. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 14)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Is that a fact?


Yes it is. Approximately 102 million people vote. Our population is over 300 million.



Is 2/3 a majority?

And which of the ignorant,don't read,don't vote categories do you fall in? If you agree with the Shelly analogy,I know a lot of people that don't vote,they do read and are not ignorant. Seems to me that's a strong analogy to lay on 2/3rds of the eligible voting populace.I am not surprised though ,considering the source.

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jazz4freeMon Sep-10-07 11:51 PM
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#18. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to bobw (Reply # 17)


  

          

Quote:
Most people in this country are totaly ignorant politically, both Republican and Democrat. They read nothing, they know nothing, and they don't support any candidate, and they do not vote.


Quote:
If you agree with the Shelly analogy,I know a lot of people that don't vote,they do read and are not ignorant. Seems to me that's a strong analogy to lay on 2/3rds of the eligible voting populace.I am not surprised though ,considering the source.


a·nal·o·gy

1. a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.
2. similarity or comparability: I see no analogy between your problem and mine.
3. Biology. an analogous relationship.
4. Linguistics.
a. the process by which words or phrases are created or re-formed according to existing patterns in the language, as when shoon was re-formed as shoes, when -ize is added to nouns like winter to form verbs, or when a child says foots for feet.
b. a form resulting from such a process.
5. Logic. a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.

  

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troy614Mon Sep-10-07 11:53 PM
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#19. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 9)


          

Evidently there are a majority of people who vote, that are politically ignorant.

  

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Bob HMon Sep-10-07 08:55 PM
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#10. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 7)


  

          

According to wickipedia

Quote:
MoveOn originally started in 1998 as a bipartisan email group. It petitioned the United States Congress to "move on" past the ongoing impeachment proceedings of President Bill Clinton. It later publicly condemned the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Since then, it has supported John Kerry, the Democratic nominee for the 2004 U.S. presidential election <5> and raised millions of dollars for many Democratic candidates


The analysis there would seem to in opposition to your post.

One instance sited spoke of reaction by Jewish groups to a sponsored ad.

But, of course, I'm biased by being conservative.



  

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JordanMon Sep-10-07 09:52 PM
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#12. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Bob H (Reply # 10)


  

          

You left off the first sentence: MoveOn.org is a leftist public policy organization in the United States. It was formed in response to the impeachment of President Clinton.

  

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JordanMon Sep-10-07 09:57 PM
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#13. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 7)
Mon Sep-10-07 09:58 PM by Jordan

  

          

Quote: In fact, only 6 candidates got $10K or more from MoveOn:
Candidate Total Contribs
Busby, Francine P (D-CA) $124,620
Farrell, Diane Goss (D-CT) $88,360
Kissell, Larry (D-NC) $10,000
Murphy, Patrick J (D-PA) $88,112
Rodriguez, Ciro D (D-TX) $163,643
Lamont, Ned (D-CT) $251,126


It did not take two minutes with Google to find that MoveOn funneled $170,000 to Bob Casey of PA. Any serious research probably would show other similar results.

  

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jasonlevineTue Sep-11-07 12:26 AM
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#21. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 13)


  

          

OpenSecrets.org is usually a very reliable source for campaign contributions. MoveOn doesn't appear on Casey's page ( http://www.opensecrets.org/races/contrib.asp?ID=PAS2&cycle=2006&special=N ), however, it does list $720,000+ in donations as undisclosed ( http://www.opensecrets.org/races/scoff.asp?ID=PAS2&cycle=2006&special=N ). It's possible that MoveOn's donation is hidden in there.

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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JPTue Sep-11-07 12:27 AM
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#22. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 0)


          

MoveOn.org is a very biased web site with an agenda. That needs to be taken into consideration with everything on the pages of that web site.

The same can be said for any other web site that puts out political opinion.
JP

  

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ShellyTue Sep-11-07 01:56 PM
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#23. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to JP (Reply # 22)


  

          

The "biased" part of this thread is that the original poster's statement is, as usual, untrue. You all fell into the usual demagogies trap of believing a lie in the first place.

Below is what Move On actually said. At no time did they call the general a "Traitor".


Quote:
General Petraeus or General Betray Us?

View the ad (PDF)Cooking the books for the White House
General Petraeus is a military man constantly at war with the facts. In 2004, just before the election, he said there was “tangible progress“ in Iraq and that “Iraqi leaders are stepping forward.”
Washington Post, “Battling for Iraq,” by David H. Petraeus. 9/26/04 (see below)

And last week Petraeus, the architect of the escalation of troops in Iraq , said ”We say we have achieved progress, and we are obviously going to do everything we can to build on that progress.”
The Australian, “Surge Working: Top US General,” by Dennis Shanahan. 8/31/07
Every independent report on the ground situation in Iraq shows that the surge strategy has failed.
GAO report, 9/4/07
NIE report, 8/23/07
Jones report, CSIS, 9/6/07
Yet the General claims a reduction in violence. That’s because, according to the New York Times, the Pentagon has adopted a bizarre formula for keeping tabs on violence. For example, deaths by car bombs don’t count.
“Time to Take a Stand,” by Paul Krugman. 9/7/07
The Washington Post reported that assassinations only count if you're shot in the back of the head -- not the front.
“Experts Doubt Drop in Violence in Iraq,” by Karen DeYoung. 9/6/07 l
According to news reports, there have been more civilian deaths and more American soldier deaths in the past three months than in any other summer we’ve been there.
The Associated Press, “Violence Appears to Be Shifting from Baghdad.” 8/25/07
National Public Radio, “Statistics the Weapon of Choice in Surge Debate,” by Guy Raz. 9/6/07
Associated Press, “Key Figures About Iraq Since the War Began in 2003.” 9/5/07
We'll hear of neighborhoods where violence has decreased. But we won't hear that those neighborhoods have been ethnically cleansed.
Newsweek, “Baghdad’s New Owners,” by Babak Dehghanpisheh and Larry Kaplow, 9/10/07
Ibid from the AP, “Violence Appears to be Shifting From Baghdad”
McClatchy, “Despite Violence Drop, Officers See Bleak Future for Iraq,” by Leila Fadel. 8/15/07
The New York Times, “More Iraqis Said to Flee Since Troop Rise,” by James Glanz and Stephen Farrell. 8/24/07
Most importantly, General Petraeus will not admit what everyone knows; Iraq is mired in an unwinnable religious civil war.
We may hear of a plan to withdraw a few thousand American troops.
The New York Times, “Petraeus, Seeing Gains in Iraq as Fragile, is Wary of Cuts,” by David Sanger and David Cloud, 9/7/07
The Washington Post, “Petraeus Open to Pullout of One Brigade,” by Robin Wright and Jonathan Weisman. 9/7/07.
But we won’t hear what Americans are desperate to hear: a timetable for withdrawing all our troops. General Petraeus has actually said American troops will need to stay in Iraq for as long as ten years.
The Hill, “Rep. Schakowsky: Petraeus hints at decade-long Iraq presence,” by Patrick FitzGerald. 8/10/07
Today before Congress and before the American people, General Petraeus is likely to become General Betray Us.


http://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html

Shelly

  

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npmclTue Sep-11-07 03:28 PM
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#24. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 23)


  

          

I believe that Jordan was actually posting something written by the man mentioned at the end of the post.

  

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ShellyTue Sep-11-07 07:46 PM
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#25. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 24)


  

          

Not so. The subject of this thread is "MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"

Anything Move On.org says is said on their website. I searched the website and they have never said any such thing. A lie is a lie no matter how it's presented.

Shelly

  

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ablibTue Sep-11-07 07:58 PM
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#26. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 25)
Tue Sep-11-07 08:01 PM by ablib

  

          

What's with people nitpicking subject lines? !!

Taken from the article:

Quote:
MoveOn.org is suggesting that General Petraeus has 'betrayed' his country.



Isn't betrayal a traitor?


Are you saying MoveOn.org doesn't consider Petraeus a traitor or that Petraeus betrayed us?


Are you saying the subject line should of said:


"Hegseth thinks MoveOn.org thinks Petraeus is a traitor"? What's catchy about that? Who's Hegseth?

Or are we just lambasting Jordan because, you're right MoveOn.org didn't actually use the term traitor?


Whether you see it or not, MoveOn.org is suggesting it.


Or should the subject line of been:

"MoveOn.org suggests Petraeus is a traitor"?


Trying to prove a point, or prove someone a liar by nitpicking a subject line is lame.


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giseudaTue Sep-11-07 08:12 PM
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#27. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 26)


  

          

I agree, but Jordan shouldn't have used the words scumbags or traitors. Probably a little angry when he posted.

  

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JohnnyRebTue Sep-11-07 08:17 PM
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#28. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 27)


  

          

Oh I HATE IT when people post while angry!

  

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giseudaTue Sep-11-07 08:20 PM
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#30. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 28)


  

          

Yes, but I'm trying to clean my act up.

  

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JohnnyRebTue Sep-11-07 08:21 PM
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#31. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 30)


  

          

Me too. I was referring to myself

  

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JordanTue Sep-11-07 08:19 PM
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#29. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 27)


  

          

I did not use the word traitor.

  

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JohnnyRebTue Sep-11-07 08:22 PM
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#32. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 29)


  

          

Did someone else type the subject line?

  

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LilJoeTue Sep-11-07 09:34 PM
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#33. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 29)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
I did not use the word traitor.

-----------------------------------------------
Regardless of the subject title, why did you call some of us scumbags?

LilJoe

  

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jazz4freeTue Sep-11-07 09:44 PM
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#35. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to LilJoe (Reply # 33)


  

          

Ahem, good question. According to Wikipedia, there are, as of today, across America, approximately 72 million registered scumbags.

  

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ablibTue Sep-11-07 11:12 PM
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#36. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to LilJoe (Reply # 33)


  

          

I'll agree with that. I don't think there's anything wrong with the title. It's true.


Now calling all Democrats scumbags is the problem with the post. All Democrats don't agree with MoveOn.org and shouldn't be considered scumbags just because some at MoveOn.org put the rest in a bad light.


That said, it was Jordan's opinion that all Democrats are "scumbags", and just that - opinion.

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JordanWed Sep-12-07 11:00 AM
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#52. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to LilJoe (Reply # 33)


  

          

I should have made it clear that I was referring to Democrats in Washington, DC. However, they are representatives of their districts/states.

  

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jasonlevineWed Sep-12-07 12:32 PM
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#53. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 52)


  

          

Even if you limit it to Democrats in Washington D.C., not all of them agree with MoveOn.org just as not all Republicans fully support the Bush administration. Both sides have wide spectrums from "liberal" to "moderate" to "conservative." (A "liberal" Republican isn't the same as a "liberal" Democrat, though. Probably more like a moderate or conservative Democrat depending on the views.)

- Jason Levine
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JordanWed Sep-12-07 01:02 PM
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#56. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 53)


  

          

I searched Google for 'Democrats denounce moveon ad' and 'Democrats condemn moveon ad' and didn't see any articles supporting the subject. The closest was Senator Joseph Lieberman (I).

  

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jasonlevineWed Sep-12-07 01:57 PM
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#58. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 56)


  

          

Even if they don't agree with it, why should they denounce it? It's all part of free expression. Just because you don't agree with someone's opinions doesn't mean that they need to stop voicing those opinions.

- Jason Levine
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JordanWed Sep-12-07 03:42 PM
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#62. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 58)


  

          

The point was they did not disagree with it and the nut of it was the statement by an 'unamed' senator was "'No one wants to call a liar on national TV,' noted one Democratic senator, who spoke on the condition on anonymity. 'The expectation is that the outside groups will do this for us.'" If they feel that way why don't they stand up and declare on national TV that General Petraeus is a liar?

  

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jasonlevineWed Sep-12-07 04:35 PM
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#64. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 62)
Wed Sep-12-07 04:35 PM by jasonlevine

  

          

It's one of the basic rules of being a politician. Let others make the controversial statements for you. This way you get your view heard without any of the backlash being directed at you. If cornered, you can just say "They are entitled to their opinion" without agreeing or disagreeing with them.

Both sides of the aisle engage in this activity. Only when there's a significant loss seen in not publicly disagreeing with the third party group will a politician disagree in public. (For example, if a Religious Right-type group says that Jews aren't true Americans because they haven't accepted Jesus then I would think that most politicians on the Right would publicly disagree with that statement.)

The more extreme the viewpoint, the more likely that backlash over *not* disagreeing in public will hit the politician and the more likely that a public disagreement will be voiced.

For better or worse, MoveOn's ad wasn't all that extreme (perhaps beyond the "Petraeus-Betray Us" pun). It was based on what they saw as the facts of the Iraq war and their opinions based on those facts. Unfortunately, in a situation like Iraq, you're going to get conflicting reports (all part of it being "messy"). You'll get media reports who might exaggerate parts of the story to sell more papers/ads. You'll get government reports that might intentionally downplay bad parts in order to make their actions look better. The real truth is going to be next to impossible for almost anyone to see. (At least anyone who will be posting in this forum unless we have actively serving generals and Iraqis here that I didn't know about.) People (and organizations like MoveOn.org) will naturally tend to pick out the facts that support their view and publicize those.

- Jason Levine
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ShellyWed Sep-12-07 06:44 PM
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#65. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 62)
Wed Sep-12-07 06:45 PM by Shelly

  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
The point was they did not disagree with it and the nut of it was the statement by an 'unamed' senator was "'No one wants to call a liar on national TV,' noted one Democratic senator, who spoke on the condition on anonymity. 'The expectation is that the outside groups will do this for us.'" If they feel that way why don't they stand up and declare on national TV that General Petraeus is a liar?


Because Petraeus is not a liar.

You have consistently demonstrated that everything in your mind is always either black or white. In real life almost nothing is. Petraeus views certain events as a positive indication. Others just as intelligent and honorable view them differently. Petraeus selects certain events as supporting his view. Others select other events to support their views. All facts must be selected based upon an estimate of their value over other facts, and different people will see these values differently.

When asked in committee if continuing the war in Iraq would make the US safer, Petraeus honestly admitted that he did not know.

Both General Petraeus, and Ambassador Crocker laid out a vision of the US military remaining in Iraq through at least 2020. No one actually believes that is going to happen. No matter what happens our forces will be out of Iraq in 2009 at the latest.

If this country is to engage in wars like Iraq, we should do so honestly. We should reinstate the draft and raise sufficient funds through taxes and citizen sacrifice to do the job properly. That is how we fought WWII, and we were then the Greatest Generation. Wars can not be run on the cheap, with too few soldiers and too little equipment, and paid for with a credit card that our children and their children will be stuck paying off. Today we are seen as the Phony Generation, and we are hated for it.

Shelly

  

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giseudaTue Sep-11-07 09:39 PM
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#34. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 29)


  

          

Quote:
MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor


No?

  

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JordanWed Sep-12-07 09:54 AM
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#47. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 34)


  

          

The title was written by the author of the article.

  

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ablibWed Sep-12-07 12:46 PM
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#54. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 47)
Wed Sep-12-07 12:47 PM by ablib

  

          

Quote:
The title was written by the author of the article.



Well there you go! You're exonerated!


You should of posted the link to the article so this nonsense wouldn't have started in the first place!



MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor

Visit the Basement

  

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JordanWed Sep-12-07 12:55 PM
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#55. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 54)


  

          

Just following the style I have observed in this forum recently. I used to always post just the link. In this case, I fail to see a difference the words are the same.

  

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jasonlevineWed Sep-12-07 02:00 PM
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#59. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 55)


  

          

You should also provide the link as attribution. This way it is easily seen that you are posting someone else's words and not your own.

See how BobGuy posted the "chicken" article: http://www.pcqanda.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=138966&mesg_id=138966&page=

- Jason Levine
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JordanWed Sep-12-07 03:28 PM
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#61. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 59)


  

          

10-4. I thought including the author's name at the bottom as it was in the article indicated who wrote it.

  

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bobwWed Sep-12-07 03:47 PM
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#63. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 61)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
10-4. I thought including the author's name at the bottom as it was in the article indicated who wrote it.



It is "only for a select few!

Microsoft Windows XP Home
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ShellyTue Sep-11-07 11:18 PM
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#37. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 26)


  

          

There is a very specific legal definition of a of Traitor. It is not open to casual interpretation.

A traitor is one who has committed Treason by definition.

A person commits the crime of treason if he levies war against his state or country or sides to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort. Treason is a crime under federal and some state laws. Treason is made a high crime, punishable by death, under federal law by Article III, section 3 of the U.S. Constitution: "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

Under this article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court. Treason requires overt acts such as giving sensitive government security secrets to other countries, even if such countries are not enemies. Treason can include spying on behalf of a foreign power or divulging military secrets.

Shelly

  

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ablibTue Sep-11-07 11:25 PM
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#38. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 37)
Wed Sep-12-07 12:22 AM by ablib

  

          

Nitpick














http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/traitor

Visit the Basement

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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JPThu Sep-13-07 12:59 AM
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#66. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 23)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
The "biased" part of this thread is that the original poster's statement is, as usual, untrue. You all fell into the usual demagogies trap of believing a lie in the first place.

Below is what Move On actually said. At no time did they call the general a "Traitor".


I still stand by what I said, even though the OP looks to be untrue. The "any other web site" that I mentioned can include this one as well, where political opinions are readily voiced here. It all needs to be taken with a grain of salt and the understanding of where the writer is coming from.

JP

  

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flmcgWed Sep-12-07 02:16 AM
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#39. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 0)


          

General David Petraeus is a highly decorated and highly respected serving officer. He isn't, nor COULD he be a "traitor." I am a self-avowed liberal Democrat, and I do NOT support the opinions of the MoveOn organization with respect to General Petraeus. Their "Petraeus" versus "Betray us" juxtaposition was juvenile and vile.

I don't believe that we should have invaded Iraq, I don't believe that we should be there now, and I think that we should leave with all due dispatch, as in "NOW." And lest anyone think that I don't "support our troops," let me say that I spent 40 years in service to our country ( 20 military, 20 civil service) and I stand second to none in my support of our military. But I do NOT support the Bush's administration of the prosecution of this war in Iraq. We are wasting our military lives and our national treasure. It has to stop.

  

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ablibWed Sep-12-07 02:47 AM
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#40. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to flmcg (Reply # 39)
Wed Sep-12-07 02:48 AM by ablib

  

          

Well said. Some Democrats are starting to denounce the ad. The only two I can come up with now is John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi.


Last time I checked Petraeus is one of the boys over there in Iraq. His son is also soon to ship out to Iraq (or may already have).


His education, career, service, achievements to this country is unprecedented. He has been fighting most of his life to protect the freedoms that give MoveOn.org the right to put that vile ad in the paper.

I really see Petraeus as an independent in this. He was given a job to do the best that he can in an impossible situation. What is he going to say to his superiors? NO SIR!? He's going to do it and do it the best he can. And that's just what he's doing.

Ike Skelton even said in his opening statements that the current condition isn't Petraeus' fault. He inherited it. Also said that it was too bad Petraeus wasn't in charge 4 years ago.

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EthanWed Sep-12-07 07:28 AM
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#41. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 0)


  

          

Gosh. I'm sure looking forward to the coming elections.


Ethan

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
"Why shouldn't the American people take half my money from me? I took it all from them." - Edward Filene

  

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npmclWed Sep-12-07 08:30 AM
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#42. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to Ethan (Reply # 41)


  

          

I watched both presentations on the first day and some of the questioning on the second. I was very impressed and found it fascinating.

  

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ablibWed Sep-12-07 08:42 AM
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#43. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 42)


  

          

Quote:
I was very impressed and found it fascinating.


Care to elaborate?

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npmclWed Sep-12-07 09:15 AM
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#44. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 43)


  

          

I'm always impressed with the openness of American government processes. Our government isn't so open and I can't imagine such an occasion happening here in front of live world-wide TV. Perhaps you didn't realise that we can usually watch such occasions in your country as they happen, I watched on the BBC 24 hour news service.

As far as the content went, I don't think that we now know much more than we knew before. I was surprised at the Republican questioning though, stronger than I'd thought that it would be.

Our main interest is in how it'll affect us, general (including the squaddie in Iraq) opinion is that we're only staying to please the Bush administration and that Brown will find it very difficult to leave before the Americans although that is what we want to do.

  

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ablibWed Sep-12-07 09:28 AM
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#45. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 44)


  

          

I was impressed that Petraeus was as neutral on the subject as he was. I was believing prior reporting that it was going to be all positive white house spin.


I found Petraeus to point out the positives while at the same time being critical of the negatives of operations in Iraq. I too was surprised at some Republicans being overly critical.


People need to realize that this isn't Petraeus' war. It's Bush's.

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jazz4freeWed Sep-12-07 09:41 AM
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#46. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 45)


  

          

Quote:
People need to realize that this isn't Petraeus' war. It's Bush's.



The "surge" is Petraeus's baby.

  

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ablibWed Sep-12-07 09:57 AM
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#48. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 46)
Wed Sep-12-07 09:58 AM by ablib

  

          

The surge is working. It's why Petraeus has been more successful than his predecessors. The failures in Iraq are in large part because we don't have enough ground troops there. What we have there now isn't enough. Even the democrat Ike Skelton said we could use about 250,000 more troops there. But with an worn out, thinly stretched volunteer army we can't spare any more. And without more troops we are not likely to win.


On the other hand, we had the draft in Vietnam, with thousands over there and we still couldn't win.


At this point, I don't care, I want out now. Call it a Vietnam, admit defeat and leave.

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclWed Sep-12-07 10:26 AM
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#49. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 48)


  

          

Troops are not going to win in Iraq however hard they try. As I've seen stated elsewhere what is needed is a "diplomatic" surge with the high-level involvement of all Iraq's neighbours, whether the US likes them or not. When you think about it, they have a much greater right to be involved in the stable future of Iraq than we have, they're next door.

As far as Britain is concerned if we're to send more troops to Afghanistan then we have to take them from Iraq.

  

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ablibWed Sep-12-07 10:30 AM
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#51. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 49)


  

          

Quote:
As far as Britain is concerned if we're to send more troops to Afghanistan then we have to take them from Iraq



Same here.

Visit the Basement

  

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jazz4freeWed Sep-12-07 10:29 AM
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#50. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to ablib (Reply # 48)


  

          

The surge is a band aid on a tiny melanoma that has metastasized into a cancer that is eating at the brain and liver. Sure it is working, within the definition of its own narrow parameter.

Surround and permeate the worst crime infested inner-city neighborhood with a squadron of police cruisers. Send in teams of riot-geared cops to foot patrol the area 24/7, give them the power to enter without warrant and arrest without cause and use deadly force at their discretion. I can almost guarantee you the crime rate in that particular neighborhood will drop to zero in a heartbeat.

The problem is the bad guys simply pull up stakes and move to another neighborhood.

And, even though I once advocated it, getting out yesterday is no longer an option. You broke it, now you own it.

And I have no solution. Maybe a draft -- beef up your military to WWII levels and go over there and sit on it for the next generation or two.

Quite a mess, ain't it?

  

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jasonlevineWed Sep-12-07 01:54 PM
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#57. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 50)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Quite a mess, ain't it?


I think that's one of the main problems. Iraq is "messy." You've got sects fighting each other over centuries old grudges. You've got foreign elements moving in to destabilize the situation and to attack Americans. You've got poor folks with little working infrastructure in place who fear for their lives. You've got a local police force that's cobbled together and highly ineffective at the moment. You've got a government that doesn't seem to be able to overcome the entire situation. etc.... etc... etc....

It's very messy. Which means that simple, easy answers won't work. Politicians, however, like simple answers. They are easy to sound-bite. They are easy to explain in 30 seconds of debate time. They tend to make for good slogans. Complicated solutions might work better in the real world, but they are harder to explain and might also be misinterpreted come election time.

So we have Politicians trying to come up with a simple solution to a highly messy problem and berating the politicians on the other side of the aisle about how their simple solutions will be ineffective.

- Jason Levine
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ShellyWed Sep-12-07 03:24 PM
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#60. "RE: MoveOn.org Calls Petraeus a Traitor"
In response to jasonlevine (Reply # 57)


  

          

Iraq is a tarbaby. We all want to be rid of it, but we are unable to let go.

Iraq is an ill concidered tactical mistake made by a confused President egged on by a small circle of neo-conservatives who wanted aomeone in the White House they could manipulate. TYhe rsult is a failed Presidency, and a sad little man trying desperately to salvage some vestage of a legacy.

He was told in the beginning that any successful war in Iraq would require 250 to 500 thousand troops. This man who now would have you believe he listens to his generals, instead fired the general, who opposed an under staffed war, and went shopping for generals who would agree with him, through his Secretary of Defense. No difficult task once the generals had seen the fate for opposing him.

Bush lost Iraq for the same reason that Hitler lost WWII.

Even with a a mighty military and the worlds most talented general staff, Hitler lost becaues he was a political fanactic, and an incompetent military strategist, who constantly overruled his generals.

Lyndon Johnson fell into the same kind of trap in Viet Nam.

Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.

Shelly

  

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