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Subject: "Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently ..." Previous topic | Next topic
ryan auclairSat May-04-02 04:56 AM

  
"Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
Sat May-04-02 05:06 AM

          

I was programming and the programs was acting very crazy so I decided to shift + delete it and restart, it had too much bugs I did not know where they were coming from, it looked more like a corrupted file or something. So I close VC++, click the up button in explorer and shift delete. I did it too fast and deleted the wrong source code! What program can I use to retrieve it? It's a very important folder of source code, the program was going well. I only noticed when it sayed "this program is an executable! Are you sure you want to delete it?" and the name was not the one I wanted to delete. So I still have the exe file, but even if I dissasemble it, it would not be the same. I know there's programs to retrieve data but I'm not sure what to look for. I never ran into a bad situation like this before. I feel so stupid of holding down shift. I got this habit of doing so when I know for sure I don't want the file. To not overwrite the data, I switched partitions and I'm now in Windows 2l, while the... wait a sec, just realised this won't do a difference, it's on my D drive, so I won't access it no more then. I'll stay in win 2k anyway since there's less stuff installed and less chance of having an access to the D drive. I badly need to retrieve this folder. Hope you can help!

edit: I've been searching and can't find anything free, I just thought I'd specify that I want it free (or cracked). This is an emergency and I don't have the time or resources to buy some stuff for one time use. I don't see the point of paying. By the way, anyone still using Windows 3.11 ? It has an utility like that, I don't know why they removed it from the later versions.




Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
Ryan

  

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JPSat May-04-02 05:56 AM
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#1. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)


          

edit: I've been searching and can't find anything free, I just thought I'd specify that I want it free (or cracked).

You really don't learn, do you? Nobody is going to post a crack here, and even if they did, it would be swiftly deleted.

JP

  

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ryan auclairSat May-04-02 06:18 AM

  
#2. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to JP (Reply # 1)
Sat May-04-02 06:21 AM

          

I ment that as a last resort. I'm sure there must be free ones somewhere. I just went trough almost all the google results and they all say that it's free and then once it's downloaded, it does not let you retrieve the files. The madning part is that the files are right there, I can see them, but I can't do anything. If I could see the binary of the files, I would copy-n-paste/type(I would type it) it all in ascii, I don't care, as long as I can get the files back. I'm also getting addicted to Windows 2000. KaZaA seems to work good on it, but I did not find that much on it yet so I'm not relying on it. I did find a dos undelete, I'm hoping it's the one from Windows 3.11, I'm hoping it will work in win98 dos. I found a program that creates a trial floppy which let's you get a max of 5 files, but floppies have write protection so ...yeah. But it created a bad floppy (or some other file system, mac?). Now it won't let me format it ether! It says I don't have the rights! Oh well, I won't worry about a "dead" floppy now. So, any programs? z-are-w backwords, freeware, anything! Emergency! SOS. I can always reprogram it but that's like 2 months of work and almost a year of research. No thanks. We all make mistakes, I just made the mistake of pressing shift + del - on the wrong file! (and the past mistake of not backing up) I guess it's not as bad as accidently formating my C drive. I almost did that out of nerveusness when trying to format A:.





Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
Ryan

  

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Bob GSat May-04-02 06:33 AM
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#3. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 2)
Sat May-04-02 06:46 AM

  

          

Don't know anything about editing code, but if you edit on a work copy, and work on it in a folder dedicated to that purpose, then it's pretty much impossible to delete the wrong thing.

  

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ryan auclairSat May-04-02 06:43 AM

  
#5. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Bob G (Reply # 3)


          

It was all something in the head that caused me this. AT first, I was working on a program which listens for a connection and when I connect to it using the program I was going to make after, you can fire up programs remotely. I had made a mistake in my code so I left it there for now since I could not figure it out, but while debuging, I caught a connection from winmx and saw all the commands, so it gave me an idea to make a program made to listen on any port and receive data. Similar to a packet smiffer. So I worked on that seperatly. So in my head, this was all one program. There was listener (the one I accidently delete, which came from the idea of the other one) and there was remote launch, the "I have to restart" one. So I clicked the up button in explorer and clicked so fast on listener, instead of remlauch, and click, oops. That's how it happened. I can't really blame no one or nothing for this, just myself for reacting faster then thinking. For a bit, I thought I really found one, but it was a trial AGAIN! Who is stupid enough to share a trial version on KaZaA?! I got one more downloading and if that don't work, I'll try the dos one which I doubt will work since I probably need win 3.11 dos to run it or I'll get a "incorrect dos version" error. I'll try it though. I still can't believe I did this. I've been a few hours on this case now!




Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
Ryan

  

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vitaltSat May-04-02 06:59 AM
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#6. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 5)


  

          


you could try this and let us know if it is any good...
http://www.uneraser.com/undelete.htm




http://www.millerlitevrl.com/
http://members.cox.net/scotterpops/index.html
http://www.bitbendertech.net/

Vitalt

Useful Team Info

  

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Bob GSat May-04-02 07:02 AM
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#7. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to vitalt (Reply # 6)


  

          

LMAO! Yeah, let Mikey try it, he'll eat anything.

  

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ryan auclairSat May-04-02 07:21 AM

  
#8. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to vitalt (Reply # 6)


          

Thanks for the link but that too is a demo that only teases. There is a preview option but it's right in dos so I can't type it nowhere. If I had a laptop I could just type in the hex code in AXE or something. It would be a lot of typing but worth it. I'm a very slow writer so I'm not even thinking of writing it on paper. It would take years. I have about 2 MB in about 10 files. So let' just say that it's like 4 million charaters in hex! The reason I would not go with the ascii on the side is because it would be more error prone. In most of these files, one error and that's it. If there's really not a free program for this, is there any dissasemblers? The exe file is the only thing that did not get deleted.




Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
Ryan

  

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veraSat May-04-02 06:42 AM
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#4. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 2)


          

ABOUT UNDELETE

Allows you to restore files that may have been deleted.


This program / command was designed to only be ran in MS-DOS versions 5.0 to 6.22. If you have upgraded to Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows NT, or any other Operating system this command will not restore any information but may possibly cause additional issues with the Hard Drive if ran. If you currently are running a different operating system it is recommended that you pay a third party to restore the information from your Hard Drive. Or possibly purchace a program capable of restoring files


from here

http://www.computerhope.com/undelete.htm

  

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dubberSat May-04-02 07:32 AM
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#9. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to vera (Reply # 4)
Sun May-05-02 01:09 AM

  

          

Ryan,

Does your email address posted here work?

Edit:

Kevin Solway has a freeware program called Disk Investigator which will undelete some files.

You can also try Drive Rescue.










  

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ryan auclairSat May-04-02 07:37 AM

  
#10. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to dubber (Reply # 9)


          

yeah, reliexec@gmx.net
I'm back on win98 since I'm scared that I opened a virus on Windows 2000 but I think I'm just paranoid (for a good reason!). KaZaA is bad for viruses and I took the chance of opening a file, and it did not do much but pop a very fast dos error. Not sure what it did.




Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
Ryan

  

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PCExpertSat May-04-02 07:50 AM
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#12. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 10)


  

          

Didn't you scan the file with NAV or AVG first be4 openning?? That is a need for using Kazaa's filesharing!! Well, to be truthful, I d/l many things from there......




PC Specs in my profile

  

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ryan auclairSat May-04-02 07:57 PM

  
#18. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to PCExpert (Reply # 12)


          

Since I was on a newly install of Windows 2000 (still trying to get my harware to work, I think I'll just dual boot when I need it since I really like Windows 2000) so I did not have nothing installed. Even though it's the C drive, I did not want to take a chance and install some stuff and have it overwrite the D's "hidden" files. I'll install one to check later though. Now that I got my files back! I feel so much better now. Now I just need to uninstall all those "freeware" (which only work if you buy it!) programs that I tried. I'll keep the one that saved me for future situations like this, not that I want to need it again!




Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
Ryan

  

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ryan auclairSat May-04-02 07:41 AM

  
#11. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)


          

Curious, is there any program that is very low level and will read partitions entirely? 1 and 0's? That could maybe be another option. Would not be easy though. Just wondering. I'm deciding if it's worth quitting and restart or not. I'll keep on looking. I'll be gone for too long next week and can't afford to come back and restart something from scratch. I need to keep things rolling. Good think I released something new not so long ago, at least that helps.




Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
Ryan

  

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elhvbSat May-04-02 11:46 AM
Member since Feb 06th 2002
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#13. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 11)


  

          

Help is on its way. Use the stuff I sent you with caution, you need a seperate formatted harddisk to put the retrieved files on. Best of luck.

_________
Do not assume anything

  

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smellystudentSat May-04-02 05:23 PM
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#14. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)


          

Have you not been using your own backup program?

  

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ryan auclairSat May-04-02 07:43 PM

  
#17. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to smellystudent (Reply # 14)
Sat May-04-02 07:50 PM

          

I do but I've been forgetting to schedule it using task scheduler (yes I know, it's Micro$oft's ) I got all the files back. I found a program yesterday and it works great. I just had to leave it on overnight to find all the files - I was getting tired and there was about an hour estimated time left. My program, recovered now, compiles and all! I'm suprised nothing got overwriten. I did access the drive a few times but I did not write to it. Thanks for all the responses! I'm never using shift again! (in fact, I'm unhooking it, using cap locks for caps ) I don't know why I used it in first place. Must be a habit I never noticed and now I did! After 2 hours of programming, I easly get 100MB in the recycle bin. Depending on if the program writes any type of file that is, since I always delete it to test it again with and without the file. For my backup program, I think it used up at least 2 GB/day of programming. That's when I can get like 10000 copies of a file called config.txt or backup.cfg for example in the recycle bin. Don't know what stoped me of sending one folder! I guess I never did a very big mistake on my computer before, so I had to do it some time.




Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
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GerBaSat May-04-02 08:15 PM
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#19. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 17)


  

          

Amazing. Don't you ever pay attention to what any of these people are telling all of us? BACKUP,RESTORE POINTS, GOBACK, whatever. Geeze Ryan!




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mauriceSat May-04-02 08:27 PM
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#20. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 17)


          

"I found a program yesterday and it works great...."

Ryan, will you tell us what you found and used ?
It might help others.


Maurice.

  

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joedSat May-04-02 06:17 PM
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#15. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)
Sat May-04-02 06:19 PM

          

If you have been using the hard drive where the deleted file is you may have lost it already. When you need to undelete a file you must stop using that drive. Anything you write to the drive including the windows virtual drive swap file that is used by windows could overwrite the data you require to recover.

  

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SteveYandlSat May-04-02 07:18 PM
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#16. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)


          

Ryan,

The recycle bin was created to prevent this type of catastrophic loss of work. You're so convinced you can do things better than Microsoft that you can't allow yourself to take advantage of many program features.

A man who steals food to feed his starving family might argue ethical justification for such a "last resort" A boy who asks for "cracked" programs as a last resort because his mom and dad don't give him a big enough allowance to afford software is a thief.

  

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GroganSat May-04-02 08:45 PM
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#21. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 16)


  

          

...moreover, a boy who asks for cracked programs in the PC911 forum when he's been told time and time again not to mention things like that here, is a fool regardless of the issue of moral integrity.

Get it yet? We don't care how you justify it in your twisted little mind, don't talk about it here. It'd save you aggravation and humiliation if you just don't mention it. (I'd like to think that you do have some sense of shame in that skull of yours somewhere)

We can cut the boy some slack because he was desperate when he wrote the post and probably wasn't thinking clearly, though. However, I think it would be really nice if it didn't happen again.

Grogan

  

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OldvetSat May-04-02 09:55 PM
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#22. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 21)


          

My goodness Ryan what are we to do with you? One thing, you do keep us
thinking, but I sometimes wonder about you. LOL



  

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ryan auclairSat May-04-02 10:05 PM

  
#23. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Oldvet (Reply # 22)
Sun May-05-02 10:05 PM

          

I tend to speak as freely here as where I live. Here, piracy is a very normal thing. Most computer gurus here where I live have a software library filled with burt CD's. I'm not the worse one ether. I kind of trimed down my collection though ftp://raserver1.dynu.com/




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SteveYandlSat May-04-02 10:18 PM
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#24. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 23)


          

What is the address of your school? Who is the senior person there? What are the names of some of the teachers who advocate software piracy?

  

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JPSat May-04-02 11:09 PM
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#25. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 23)


          

I find it hard to believe that a school would advocate software piracy.

JP

  

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OldvetSat May-04-02 11:18 PM
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#26. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to JP (Reply # 25)
Sat May-04-02 11:20 PM

          

I agree JD. Ryan if you want to do something usefull for us all
you could share the url for the prg you used to recapture your deleted file, or was all that free talk BS ?




  

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ryan auclairSun May-05-02 06:09 AM

  
#45. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Oldvet (Reply # 26)


          

program used: Easy Recovery. I forget the link. An other case of accidential delete. I should label it "the red button - do not touch". Actually, it's not deleted, somewhere on my other partition.




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GerBaSat May-04-02 11:27 PM
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#27. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 23)


  

          

"Here in Timmins, piracy is a very normal thing. All the teachers I had will usually encourage it."
If this true then I hope it is not the norm everywhere else. It is ammunition for those who would legislate our right to use our computers the way we want and don't kid yourself that what happens here in the US won't affect you in Canada.




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ryan auclairSun May-05-02 12:13 AM

  
#28. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to GerBa (Reply # 27)


          

They will still follow the rules and not install pirated software for their class, that's one thing, so it's not completly considered normal. And we all know it's against the law, but we look at it as, what's better, paying thousands, or getting a $150 fine? (just picked any number but I can't see a death penalty or anything!)




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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 12:27 AM
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#29. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 28)


          

Ryan,

You still haven't given me the address for your school or the names of any teachers who advocate piracy. If you made up this garbage about your teachers, I'm calling your bluff. If it is the truth, I can assure you that the price any of those teachers end up paying will be higher than $150 (you're right, they won't get the death penalty).

Software piracy is stealing. It's that simple. You say that you and your friends prefer stealing to purchasing as long as the potential fine is relatively low. What kind of person are you?

  

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ryan auclairSun May-05-02 12:42 AM

  
#30. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 29)


          

I don't really look at it as steeling. Steeping something (a physical object) from a store, let's say a diamond ring, would be bad. The material used to make it, the labor time to make it, that one ring, cost money, so they have to charge for it, as an individual object. But piracy, it's (unless it's steeling it from the store, it goes in the diamond ring category) simply a copy of the same thing. So whether somone downloads 100 or 10, it does not change anything, the CD, box etc is still in the store, un damaged/taken. And yes it is true that a few of my teachers mentioned that we can get AutoCAD (design class) / adobe premiere (art class) off the net, so we can do our homework,use it etc. It was just a by the way type of thing. I should of not said "encouraged", it was just "told us it was possible and go try it". I had dialup when he mentioned about AutoCAD since it was a last semester class but I managed to get it with a 56k modem. I think all the waiting is paying the price.




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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 01:03 AM
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#31. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 30)


          

Give me the teacher's name and his email address or phone number. I want to talk with him.

Ryan, you are not only foolish, you are a thief and a liar. I can't figure out if you're stupid or just dishonest. The people who make their living writing software code expect to be paid for their time and effort. An illegal copy of an application deprives those creative people of their pay or it forces them to charge the rest of us more to compensate. The difference between stealing software and stealing physical goods is that it is easier to get away with stealing software but it is just as wrong.

  

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ryan auclairSun May-05-02 01:29 AM

  
#32. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 31)


          

This is going a little too far I think. I did sound like I was saying pirating is ok, but I agree that it's not ok, and when I run a pirated copy of anything, I do realise what I did, by downloading it. The whole point of this post was for me to get help with something that was quite an emergency, virutally, and I appreciate those who gave me some apps which helped me out, but now I'm done, the files are back, the program works, mission successful. I can continue my freeware production as it was before I did that stupid move (shift + delete
center]


Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
Ryan

  

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MeehowskiSun May-05-02 01:42 AM
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#33. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 32)


  

          


  

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General_KSun May-05-02 02:01 AM
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#35. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 32)


          

Ryan,

If your school was audited by Microsoft, I'll bet they (and you) would be singing a different tune.


  

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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 02:16 AM
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#37. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 32)


          

This thread has gone too far because you don't seem to be terribly honest and you don't have the sense to keep quiet about your unlawful behavior. I still want to contact your school and see if they really encourage students to engage in piracy. Please provide the information that I requested. I would be happy to spend the long distance charges so that I could discuss ethics with the teacher who wants you to pirate AutoCad.

  

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OldvetSun May-05-02 02:15 AM
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#36. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 31)


          


Somehow get the feeling you won't be getting that Teachers Name Steve,
Don't get upwind of some of the posts.



  

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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 02:29 AM
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#38. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Oldvet (Reply # 36)


          

I'm fairly sure Ryan will not provide me the name. I doubt it would take much time checking his email properties or his web site to discover his physical address. From that it would be easy enough to figure out the school. I'll bet that if the administration at Ryan's school discovers the kind of publicity he is providing them, he will get a lot of personalized attention

I own stock in a number of software companies. Software piracy against those companies constitutes stealing from me. I also pay higher prices for software to subsidize the many people who simply steal it. Ryan's attitude irks me and I'm not inclined to write it off as the stupidity of youth.

  

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elhvbSun May-05-02 02:53 AM
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#39. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 38)


  

          

I knew it was a personal thing...

OK, here is the deal. The next time Ryan finds someone in deep trouble he will surely advise the person in question to go out and BUY the same software that worked for him.

Wait a second, I see the problem. Ryan, how much is that retrieved work worth to you and how much would you benefit from it? Maybe you should put aside enough earnings from that particular program you made to buy a license for the app you used to get back your work...

Seems only fair...

_________
Do not assume anything

  

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ryan auclairSun May-05-02 06:06 AM

  
#44. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to elhvb (Reply # 39)


          

That retrieved work was worth a lot for me, but not in money. It's like mesuring liquid with KM's, you need to use the right unit, and in this case, the unit was time and effort. I actually hardly worked on it yet, but after it's done, I'll be happy to have released it to public - for free. I get such a nice feeling when I release a piece of software that I worked hard on, and know, that to that second, someone can possibly download it and like it, or dislike it. Usually, people will not hate my software, but if they do, it's free, they did not get ripped off. I am always free for suggestions and in fact, got a lot of suggestions/requests to change a software. I change it, re release it, and the person can download it, again, for free. But if I would charge, most of the customer satisfaction part would not work out that great, if the person would hate my software, he would of got ripped off.




Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
Ryan

  

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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 06:43 AM
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#47. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 44)


          

Ryan,

Don't think for an instant that your willingness to give your work away as freeware lets you off the hook. Robin Hood is a nice story, but in real life, those who steal from Microsoft and other large companies can't claim much virtue, even if they give away the spoils from their criminal behavior. You even have the audacity to blame the failures resulting from your own absurd behavior on the software that you've stolen.

  

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OldvetSun May-05-02 02:58 AM
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#40. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 38)


          

Of course..Stealing is stealing. Maybe I'm old and getting senile
but I've sensed a lot of what cultivates the roses in some of his prior posts. As my better half says of me he seems at times to suffer from verbal diarrheal.
Lhttp://



  

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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 03:52 AM
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#41. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Oldvet (Reply # 36)


          

I've been doing a bit of homework. I think I'll be inviting Mr. Wilson, Mrs. Weir, and Mr. Pirie from the R. Ross Beattie school in Timmins Ontario to visit our little forum. If they don't seem to know Ryan, I'll just try the staff at the secondary and religious schools. The Beattie school just caught my eye with their cool computer lab and I was particularly impressed with their beliefs statement:


"We believe that it is essential to communicate our behavioral expectations and rationale to students and their parents/guardians. Our code of behaviour is based upon the concepts of mutual respect, logical consequences, accountability, self-discipline and co-operation.

Many students appear unconcerned about "borderline behaviour". Behaviours such as spitting and gum chewing will not be accepted. We stress to our students that by using their good common sense, appropriate conduct will result.

We believe that students must become productive members of society. The school should encourage correct behaviour in order for students to acquire the skills necessary for adulthood."

  

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doctormidnightSun May-05-02 03:55 AM
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#42. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 41)


  

          

Maybe the reason Ryan's brain is so out of whack is that he's not allowed to spit or chew gum.

  

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andrini2000Tue May-07-02 05:07 AM
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#143. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 42)


  

          

He must be from Singapore then.



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JoePWed May-08-02 12:03 AM
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#160. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 23)


          

not burt bacharach, surely?

  

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MeehowskiSun May-05-02 01:47 AM
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#34. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)


  

          


  

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flegmatoSun May-05-02 05:21 AM
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#43. "my 2 cents"
In response to Meehowski (Reply # 34)
Sun May-05-02 05:24 AM

          

Been a while since i visited these boards, but I thought I would throw in my 2 cents about piracy, so here it is:

Keep in mind, that here I am refering to an individual purchasing software, not a company.
In general piracy is wrong. People put lots of hard work into software and they deserve to be paid for it. However, I believe there a re a few instances in which piracy is ok. For example, if you are considering purchasing an expensive piece of software that has no trial version, or the trial version is crap and doesnt let you do anything. Then I think its ok to download the full version illegally, check it out, and see if it's going to be worth your investment. If you don't like it, then you just uninstall the warez version. If you do think it will be worth your money, then you uninstall the warez version, and go out and buy it! If an individual purchases a piece of software that he/she is unable to properly evaluate beforehand and ends up blowing a lot of money on something that cant be used, then it is my opinion that the company is stealing from the user. I have used this method of using warez to evaluate software dozens of times, and I'm glad I have. Some of the software I have tried was great, so I bought it. Others were bad (or not suited for what I wanted to do) so I simply uninstalled the warez version and saved myself from wasting a couple thousand dollars on something I couldnt use.

Peace out...

just to let you all know the address in my sig is wrong. http://flegmaticdevteam.cjb.net/ will take you to my site if you want to see some of the software i'm working on...

  

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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 06:14 AM
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#46. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to flegmato (Reply # 43)


          

People who burglarize houses and cars could use the exact same argument. Your ethics aren't even questionable, they are wrong. What about the guy who rapes the neighbor woman because she wouldn't give him a "trial run". It is up to the seller whether or not samples or trials are provided and failure to offer such a sample does not constitute a valid excuse to steal.

  

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ShellySun May-05-02 07:23 AM
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#48. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to flegmato (Reply # 43)


  

          

I never met a thief who had any trouble rationalizing their crime.

Shelly

  

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magicjabbaSun May-05-02 11:10 AM
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#50. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 48)


          

Does anyone see the irony in that a programmer who wants to sell programs is promoted (or at least sees no problem with) piracy. Ryan, how would you like to work for months or years on a program just to see only one copy of it bought and everyone else pirating it for free? Years of your life suddenly become worth only $49.99!!!

"Is there life after death? Mess with my computer and find out."

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SpeziSun May-05-02 11:57 AM
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#53. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to magicjabba (Reply # 50)


  

          

In my opinion there appears to be no reasoning with Ryan and his antics of not only ridiculous but also criminal behavior are not even remotely close to amusing.

Ryan you are far from being a child anymore so that simply doesn't cut it as an excuse for your abhorrent conduct.

I can only say that you've gotten me to the point where I am ashamed to admit that you are a fellow Canadian.

I hope Steve Yandel is successful in contacting your teacher as it is about high time that someone rained on your parade. Timmins is not that big of a place from my recollection.


There are only two people I know of that originate from Timmins and that would be Shania Twain and Ryan. Man talk about contrasts.

  

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flegmatoSun May-05-02 10:57 AM
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#49. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to flegmato (Reply # 43)


          

1. Comparing software piracy to rape is just wrong. That is going too far.

2. Read what I wrote again. I pay for every piece of software that I use. I am not trying to justify stealing software, I am trying to justify not wasting money on something I will never use. Am I making sense here? Dont be so anti-piracy oriented that you wont listen to simple logic.

  

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GerBaSun May-05-02 11:22 AM
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#51. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to flegmato (Reply # 49)


  

          

No software developer is obligated to provide any type of trial version of their software but many do and some who do don't provide enough features to let you determine if it is what you need or not. If you could simply return the software that doesn't suit your needs as you can many other products that would work fine but many stores wont let you return opened software assuming you installed/copied it and are stealing it by returning it which is not so in most cases (except maybe in Timmons, Ontario.) Proper copy protection, a liberal return policy and resonable prices would negate the reason for many to consider warez software.






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doctormidnightSun May-05-02 11:45 AM
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#52. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to GerBa (Reply # 51)


  

          

There's no such thing as proper copyright protection. Stores will never have a "liberal return policy" because they know that copyright protection is a joke. If its on a disk, its vulnerable.

I think Nero is probably the best example of a company that has a pretty good "try it out" policy, too bad more companies aren't following their lead.

  

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Hardware FreekSun May-05-02 06:27 PM

  
#55. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 52)


          

>There's no such thing as proper copyright protection. Stores
>will never have a "liberal return policy" because they know
>that copyright protection is a joke. If its on a disk, its
>vulnerable.
>
>I think Nero is probably the best example of a company that
>has a pretty good "try it out" policy, too bad more
>companies aren't following their lead.


Try buying at Electronics boutique they have an unconditional 10 day money back policy (on undamaged goods) as do many software nanufacturers in which you can send the softwate 7 reciept back (usually within 30 days) for a full refund.

http://www.ebgames.com

It is mostly games but they have some utility software. like windows Xp upgrade & Norton stuff.

  

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JPSun May-05-02 08:11 PM
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#59. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 52)


          

One chain local to me (Micro Center) did let you return opened software until last summer. They have been very lenient on what can be returned, and take back everything, hardware and software alike if you don't like it. (All "good" returns wind up in the bargin bins) However, it got way out of hand with the software, so you are now only allowed to exchange your return for the same software.

Piracy had dealt a death blow to being allowed to freely return software that didn't work, or didn't suit your needs.

JP

  

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waldoThu May-22-03 01:35 AM
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#171. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 52)
Sun May-05-02 05:06 PM

  

          

Ya know Ryan, it looks to me as if you have been placed on "double secret probation" around here. And I do believe that Steve will talk to someone at your school also so maybe you should keep your posts here on the legal side. I also heard that Bill Gates has his copyright cops investigating you. {I'll bet THEIR software has no bugs!) Please keep on posting as we all (mostly) enjoy them but not if by reading them we could end up in jail or without the best damn website on the web to come to.

Walter A Robertson

Attachment #1, (gif file)

  

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Hardware FreekSun May-05-02 05:03 PM

  
#54. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to waldo (Reply # 171)


          

Whilst I think Ryan has made a mistake here in the foolishness of youth I think you are all pushing the wrong guy, I suggest you spend the same amount of energy & time chasing the guys that UPLOAD the software in the first place & outlawing priograms like kazzaa.

I for one would feel very uneasy at seeing someone like Ryan ending up in a court against the likes of Microsoft when the real culprits are uploading every program they can get their hands on & supporting warez websites to get cash from the advertising hits.

Steve wake up & smell the coffee, get real & chase the right guys or get off your soapbox.

  

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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 06:41 PM
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#56. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to Hardware Freek (Reply # 54)
Sun May-05-02 06:52 PM

          

If someone who uploads pirated software posts about it on this forum, I will go after him/her. As a moderator, I have an obligation to either delete posts condoning software piracy or argue to make it clear that such behavior is not condoned here.

To argue that Ryan is less guilty than the guy who uploads the software hardly mitigates Ryan's situation. Not only does he admit to using pirated software, he has claimed that the teachers at his school tell him to do so. If false, he has committed libel, if true, the teachers are engaged in contemptible misconduct. If Ryan has done nothing wrong, he should be quite comfortable having me speak to his teachers and inviting them to the forum to read what he has posted about their school and them.

Sorry, I don't plan to get off my "soapbox" on this one.

  

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JPSun May-05-02 08:17 PM
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#60. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to Hardware Freek (Reply # 54)


          

Whilst I think Ryan has made a mistake here in the foolishness of youth I think you are all pushing the wrong guy, I suggest you spend the same amount of energy & time chasing the guys that UPLOAD the software in the first place & outlawing priograms like kazzaa.

Err.. Freek, he posted a URL for a small FTP server he's running that has commercial stuff on it. Yep, he has uploaded as well. (That URL got removed from the message)

He has repeatedly talked about warez and cracks here, and that's why some are taking issue with him now. It's not like it's an isolated case.

JP

  

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Hardware FreekSun May-05-02 08:47 PM

  
#61. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to JP (Reply # 60)


          

>Whilst I think Ryan has made a mistake here in the
>foolishness of youth I think you are all pushing the wrong
>guy, I suggest you spend the same amount of energy & time
>chasing the guys that UPLOAD the software in the first place
>& outlawing priograms like kazzaa.

>
>Err.. Freek, he posted a URL for a small FTP server he's
>running that has commercial stuff on it. Yep, he has
>uploaded as well. (That URL got removed from the message)
>
>He has repeatedly talked about warez and cracks here, and
>that's why some are taking issue with him now. It's not like
>it's an isolated case.


Sorry I wasn't aware of that!

  

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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 07:15 PM
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#58. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to flegmato (Reply # 49)


          

I didn't say that software piracy was equivalent to rape. I used a drastic example to make my point. That point is that a crime is a crime, even if it is a consequence of the victim's unwillingness to provide samples of whatever the lawbreaker wanted to obtain. Perhaps you always pay for software that checks out and discard the rest. That isn't the case for most people who "borrow" software to check it out. If most people were like you claim to be, a lot of money could be saved by offering everything as shareware. Unfortunately, that isn't the way most people are. Even if they were, it is up to the people who wrote the software to determine whether or not they let people try it out. Find some reviewers whose opinions you trust rather than use pirated software.

You can argue that your behavior is justified but it is, in fact, illegal.

  

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bishop01Mon May-06-02 09:55 AM
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#89. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to flegmato (Reply # 43)


          

flegmato..Your sig states "pain is an illusion" I don't know where you picked up this bit of finite wisdom, but if you wanted to try on my personal physical pain I wish you could. I am in pain every waking minute of my day. It is my luck of the draw. It is not an illusion. It is more like a raging animal that I can barely keep under control. I find your sig offensive.

  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 10:14 AM
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#91. "RE: my 2 cents"
In response to bishop01 (Reply # 89)
Mon May-06-02 10:15 AM

  

          

I believe the quote "pain is an illusion" is from either C.S. Lewis (I could be wrong), but every time I have seen it, the reference has always been to pain that we create and manifest in ourselves (i.e., psychological or emotional pain), not physicals pain. Besides, its not like he's telling you that you have to agree with the quote, even if it did refer specifically to physical pain, they're just words.

edit: spelled they're wrong AGAIN!!!

  

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paladin1Sun May-05-02 06:57 PM
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#57. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)
Sun May-05-02 07:27 PM

  

          

Ryan,

Sorry about your problem. Perhaps this will help. The program is called: "Restoration", and it is freeware. From CFS, and PCWorld rates it a "must have program for all PC users". I hope that this is what you need,

http://www.completelyfreesoftware.com/du_w95.html







Guess I should have read all the posts first! Sorry.
Ryan, try to delete your thoughts about piracy...


paladin1

  

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Bob GSun May-05-02 10:57 PM
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#66. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to paladin1 (Reply # 57)


  

          

I've had Drive Rescue for a while, and it works when I test it (for immediately recovering shift deleted items.) Completely forgot I had it until you reminded me. I guess after this thread I won't forget It's free btw, and claims a lot of capability.

A suggested test is to put some files on a floppy, quick format it and then try to recover - the author claims his will work in this case better than others. You definitely want to familiarize yourself with this type of utility when you get it, so in your panicked state when you need it, you don't screw it up.

  

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ryan auclairSun May-05-02 09:56 PM

  
#62. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)


          

OK, PROBLEM SOLVED. Just freaken delete this post. Make sure none of the recovery programs will work to get it. This is going too far. All I made is an exagerated version of what 1 teacher said after someone asking how to get AutoCAD. The teacher said "do you have high speed?". And it finished like that, he did not have high speed, I did not ether. Seriously, I just learned today that the internet is a really dangeraus place to put your city, never mind, country.
If you want to do some productive searching, look for what school Bin Laden went to and investigate where he is now.

Note to self: never use real address in internet forms.




Tired of bugs(Y/N)?
Ryan

  

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MeehowskiSun May-05-02 10:03 PM
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#63. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 62)


  

          

Ryan....I'm so tired of you & your RANTS!!

You BORE me ......

Goodbye...

Meehowski









  

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SpeziSun May-05-02 10:16 PM
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#64. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 62)
Sun May-05-02 10:23 PM

  

          



Simply deleting your post won't fix a thing. It's your attitude that needs adjustment.

You might also learn to actually think before recanting an encounter from school in your own words to appear cool when in fact I'm sure your teacher never condoned anything in the manner you would have us believe.

If it takes Steve talking to your teachers to smarten you up then I'm all for it. Lord knows you've had plenty of opportunity and guidance from caring people here and all to no avail so far.

Edit: BTW for what it's worth there's a big difference between exaggerating and flat out lying based on your own warped interpretation of someone's statement.

You make a good case study for why corporal punishment should be returned to the classroom.

  

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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 10:50 PM
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#65. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 62)


          

>OK, PROBLEM SOLVED. Just freaken delete this post. Make
>sure none of the recovery programs will work to get it.
>This is going too far. All I made is an exagerated version
>of what 1 teacher said after someone asking how to get
>AutoCAD. The teacher said "do you have high speed?". And
>it finished like that, he did not have high speed, I did not
>ether. Seriously, I just learned today that the internet is
>a really dangeraus place to put your city, never mind,
>country.
>If you want to do some productive searching, look for what
>school Bin Laden went to and investigate where he is now.
>
>Note to self: never use real address in internet forms.
>

Ryan,

In your first email to me, you express concern that I will appear foolish when I speak to those teachers and accuse them of something they didn't do. While I appreciate your concern, I have no intention of accusing them of anything because I don't know for certain what really was said and by which teacher. My plan is to let them know what you've accused them of. I may have guessed the wrong school but Mr. Wilson who runs the computer lab at Beattie will be able to tell me who teaches computer classes at the other schools in Timmins and what their email addresses are. My bet is that the person you accuse of suggesting you pirate AutoCad will be very interested in reading this thread. You can go back and edit your own posts but several of us have copies that we can provide to your school.

You think that the solution to your problem is to post with a bogus identity in the future. I don't think you're capable of changing your writing style so that you won't be recognized. The best solution is to stop posting comments that you should be ashamed of; that way you can use your real name and not worry about who reads your posts.

  

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doctormidnightSun May-05-02 11:15 PM
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#67. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 65)


  

          

For the most part, I think Steve is correct. But I don't think that revealing the contents (whether you are quoting or just using generalizations) of a private email is very responsible. If you did that to me, regardless of the situation, I would definitely be pissed. Just because it's Ryan, who has been the brunt of a plethora of bad jokes, doesn't mean that you automatically have the right to redefine what is acceptable (ethically) in the forum.

  

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SteveYandlSun May-05-02 11:55 PM
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#68. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 67)


          

If you send me an email and ask that the contents be kept confidential, that is what I'll do. Otherwise, I'm likely to use my discretion and consult with other moderators in trying to find an answer to whatever your inquiry or concern might be. In general, the chance that I would share any email with the entire forum population is minimal and I would generally ask the writer's permission first.

In this case, I've not shared anything from Ryan's email that couldn't have been easily discovered by reading his posts in this thread. Granted, he has started editing some of his posts in anticipation of a visit by some of his teachers but I'm not sharing anything that Ryan didn't already make very public. If that upsets Ryan, I really don't care.

  

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bishop01Mon May-06-02 10:05 AM
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#90. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 62)


          

Yeah sure, the horse is out of the barn now, too late to shut the doors. It's going to br tough to sleaze out of this one.

  

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ShellyMon May-06-02 12:01 AM
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#69. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)


  

          

Just a few minor points. There are a lot of people that visit here who are in the software industry, I believe I remember one with Autodesk (publisher of Autocad). The average penalty asked for and awarded by the courts in software piracy cases involving businesses or governmental organizations (such as schools) is $150,000 per offense, not $150.00. If I were in your position Ryan, I would be concerned with a lot more than your teachers being contacted.

Shelly

  

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paladin1Mon May-06-02 12:14 AM
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#70. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 69)


  

          

Ryan,

I believe it was Emily Dickinson who said it best:

"...Oh what a tangled web we weave,
when we first but practice to deceive..."

Have an interesting day,

paladin1


paladin1

  

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StarshipwarriorMon May-06-02 03:33 AM
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#71. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to paladin1 (Reply # 70)


          

OK Folks
the bottom line here is that as adults we are responisable to report what young ryan has said on this forum not only to his teachers but his Parents !

As a parent or adult we have the responsiablity to "GUIDE" young Ryan in the right direction and from his post here the only way to do that is to have some adult that can "phiysical" force changes.

IF adults ignore the rules and dont disapline our youth we are just as guilty



Starship Warrior

  

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Hardware FreekMon May-06-02 03:38 AM

  
#72. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Starshipwarrior (Reply # 71)


          

What a shame that it is probably adults that upload most warez in the first instance, what kind of parents do they make, would THEIR kids be proud of them?

  

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StarshipwarriorMon May-06-02 04:01 AM
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#73. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Hardware Freek (Reply # 72)


          

very true hardware freak
BUT ! And this is a BIG BUT !!!!
the law sees anyone who knows and does not report the crime just as guilty as the party that committed the crime.

And let me add one more thing - if you have noticed in the last few years the citizens of our great nation have "LEARNED" that crimes commited by underage persons are no longer "dismissed" as "crimes of young and innocence" they realized that these people knew what they were doing and are now tried as adults.

So what might have been a "slap" on the wrist is now a 3-5 year prison sentence - we no longer "BUY" the saying "but it was the first time i did it"

That is one reason our prisons are so over crowded


Starship Warrior

  

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BackflipMon May-06-02 03:06 PM
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#96. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to paladin1 (Reply # 70)


  

          

Paladin, you are deceived, it was written by Sir Walter Scott. LOL




  

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martiMon May-06-02 04:08 AM
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#74. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)


  

          

I suggest that all of you that think that we are being "too harsh" with Ryan to read the PC911 posting guidelines: http://www.pcnineoneone.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_announcements
Specifically, please read this paragraph:
Do not post anything unlawful, e.g. information that could be used for software or music piracy, password hacking, cracking, Internet attacks, etc. You are responsible for the content of your postings, and may be held liable for what you say. Any posts containing information or links about such illegal activities or any other material violating the law will be removed.


For those of you that need a little help with interpreting that paragraph, I can put it into one sentence: Do not ask about nor post anything that has do with stealing software, of any kind. There is the "dark side" of the internet where they will welcome you, but this is not the place. The goal of this site is to provide computer support. We also welcome non-computer related questions and are very pleased that 99% of you continue to add "OT" (stands for "off-topic" -- not computer related) to your posts.

If we condone posts relating to software piracy, or any other illegal activity, we cannot afford (read "money") to "get involved with the lawyers." Enough said.


marti

  

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unclegaryMon May-06-02 05:47 AM
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#75. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to marti (Reply # 74)


          

I agree with Marti. Why have we dignified Ryan's post with more than 75 responses when what he posted is against the forum rules and probably suggestive of illegal activity. Couldn't a moderator have pulled the plug on this at the onset? Massive responses imply importance. Nothing Ryan has had to say is important. At the least, his inquiry is unethical.

Gary

  

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SteveYandlMon May-06-02 06:19 AM
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#76. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to unclegary (Reply # 75)


          

Gary,

Normally I choose to ignore Ryan's posts because reading what he has to say distracts from more important issues. In this case, he hit one of my "hot buttons" and I decided to hand him enough rope to hang himself. I suspect that several other moderators would have preferred to simply delete posts or the entire thread but they chose to let it stand because I had chosen to engage Ryan on the issue. I think that I'm the only moderator who has never deleted a post on the forum. I happen to believe that it is a far more effective deterrent to force unethical people to face humiliating consequences, rather than covering up the nonsense they spread.

  

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dbahnMon May-06-02 06:38 AM
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#77. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 76)


  

          

Steve,

Just out of curiosity, can a moderator lock just a single post, and not the whole thread? Being able to modify one's own post is a nice option, but if the whole context is altered, it can be very difficult to follow unless other posters have saved the quote in subsequent posts.

Dave

Dave



Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

  

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ShellyMon May-06-02 06:49 AM
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#78. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to dbahn (Reply # 77)


  

          

Only the entire thread can be locked, individual posts can be deleted or edited by a moderator.

Frankly I did not look at this thread at first. I too choose to ignore Ryan's posts now because they are mostly childish nonsense, I looked in only to see why there had been so many responses. Had I looked at the beginning I would have removed the thread at the first mention of illegal activity. By the time I did see it, I chose to defer to Steve's judgement.

Shelly

  

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BobMcGMon May-06-02 07:40 AM
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#79. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 76)


  

          

"......I decided to hand him enough rope to hang himself."


O.K., he hung himself, but do you have to drive a stake through his heart too?

  

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SteveYandlMon May-06-02 08:03 AM
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#80. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to BobMcG (Reply # 79)


          

How is inviting a few teachers from Timmins Ontario to participate in our forum going to drive a stake through Ryan's heart? This is a public forum and there can be no expectation of privacy. Ryan clearly stated that software piracy is a very "normal" thing in Timmins. Why should he be the least bit concerned to have his teachers discover that he has not only applied what they encouraged him to do, he is trying to share these lessons with others? What greater tribute can the student make to the teacher?

  

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andrini2000Mon May-06-02 08:10 AM
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#81. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 80)


  

          

I'm in china, and 'piracy' is the way of life here. After they went into the WTO it's supposed to help, but who knows.



Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

  

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Bob GMon May-06-02 08:14 AM
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#82. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to andrini2000 (Reply # 81)


  

          

It's not a way of life, it's a government supported industry.

  

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LackosleepMon May-06-02 08:16 AM
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#83. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to andrini2000 (Reply # 81)


          

It wouldn't be if it was THIER software! The "it's considered normal in some cultures" argument is moot in this case.

  

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BobMcGMon May-06-02 08:16 AM
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#84. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 80)


  

          

Ryan has been publicly spanked in this forum and I doubt if he will ever post here again. IMHO anything more is just piling on.

  

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Bob GMon May-06-02 08:21 AM
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#85. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 80)


  

          

Ah, come on Steve. What it looks like from here (not saying what it is, just what it looks like) is one of the few people here I'm willing to admit is smarter than me, using that intelligence to manipulate some screwed up kid. I can understand your frustration on several levels, but it does seem you've taken more of a personal interest than would normally be appropriate. Just my two bits.

  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 08:43 AM
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#86. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Bob G (Reply # 85)


  

          

Maybe Steve doesn't see this as a "normal situation". He did state on several occasions that above and beyond the legal issues, he does have a vested interest in the topic, more so than some others who might not invest in software companies. One of his intentions is to scare the living shit out of Ryan, and if I were him, it would definitely be brown trousers time! Regardless of the fact that I disagree with certain aspects of how Steve has chosen to handle this whole discussion, I still think that his basic arguement is without fallacy. I'll leave the decision on whether Steve has overstepped his bounds to Alex and the Moderators, thats why they get paid the big bucks

  

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andrini2000Mon May-06-02 08:57 AM
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#87. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 86)


  

          

True. It is their govt. However, their propaganda shows on tv every once in a while, where they make a big pile of pirated goods, and then set it ablaze. It really is a joke. 'They' are a joke.
If they only knew...



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GroganMon May-06-02 09:06 AM
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#88. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 86)


  

          

Nobody is overstepping any bounds here. Steve can make his own decisions. We don't have to agree...

Grogan

  

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AlMon May-06-02 12:13 PM
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#92. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 88)


  

          

Another point that has been hinted at, but maybe not clearly stated: We are talking about this forum's survival. Anyone who does not believe that this forum gets visitors from major software companies need to think again. And if we are seen as supporting piracy, this forum will get shut down, one way or another. If scaring the bejesus out of Ryan gets the point across, then I consider that a reasonable action. If one of those visitors chooses to arrange a visit to Ryan's school, or for a LEO to visit Ryan, then the only person Ryan has to blame is himself. I would say that Steve has done a big favor for Ryan by clearly letting Ryan see the potential consequences of his actions.

Bottom line, any discussion of actual piracy of software on this forum is a threat to the forum's existence, and the moderators will deal with it.



  

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cameronashawMon May-06-02 01:01 PM
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#93. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Al (Reply # 92)


  

          

doctormidnight, moderators get paid big bucks? do they know about this?

BTW:no way condoning ryan's posts, but when i first started doing graphic design using CAD, my tutor at the time merely said that "if you want a copy of CAD it is expensive, but for the price of a couple of pints im sure students have their ways..."
However, those students who really need AutoCAD can get it on student licence, much safer and legal.

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Hardware FreekMon May-06-02 01:47 PM

  
#94. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 93)


          

I personally know quite a few students as I often fix their PC's & the sad fact of life is that most of then simply cannot afford the high cost of software, we have a situation here in the UK where all grants & student loans given have to be repaid, this amounts to a considerable figure at the end of a university course. I don't know any student with a PC that has completely legal software on it. I refuse to install say windows without a genuine CD & key etc, but it seems to me that leasing such software is a far better option with an option to purchase at a reduced figure later on (maybe deducting such monies as has already been paid via the lease minus admin costs).

Only once software is affordable will piracy even slow down, one problem that I can see with the likes of autocad is that it costs the same if you are a casual user as a commercial user, how is this fair? commercial applications obviously can generate a sizeable income that negates the software costs, but for the average home user this is a very large investment, so much so that even I may be tempted to "borrow" such applications for a "one off" use.

Ryan has had his punishment IMHO, going up to a youngster & shouting about $150,000 fines is OT & would if it went to court either be thrown out or destroy his life paying off such a fine, put yourself in Ryans shoes, were you a perfect child? how would you feel at ppl he regarded as friends attacking him to such a degree, have some reason & compassion. He made a mistake as I said earlier "in the foolishness of youth" may all your PC's suffer a power surge as I'm so disappointed in you all for turning this into a personal vedetta.

Shame on you all.

  

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brettMon May-06-02 02:51 PM
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#95. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Hardware Freek (Reply # 94)


          

>Only once software is affordable will piracy even slow down,

I doubt that it would slow down. Take a look at some of the warez sites and you'll see patches and serials for software which costs only £5.00. If (some) people can evade paying, they'll do so - irrespective of the cost of the item.

>one problem that I can see with the likes of autocad is that
>it costs the same if you are a casual user as a commercial
>user, how is this fair? commercial applications obviously
>can generate a sizeable income that negates the software
>costs, but for the average home user this is a very large
>investment, so much so that even I may be tempted to
>"borrow" such applications for a "one off" use.

Whether or not it's "fair" is irrelevant - it's the vendors choice as to what they charge and whether or not they offer a tiered pricing structure: some do, some don't. If a person feels that the cost of a piece of software is unreasonable, they should look at an alternative products. There is a freeware alternative for just about every commercial product.

>Ryan has had his punishment.

Agreed. I hope this goes no further. As youngsters we used to crawl under the fencing at some nearby tennis courts in order to avoid having to pay at the entrance gate and sneak into a nearby nursey in order to pinch fruit (the Kray twins had nothing on us!). What Ryan is doing is not that much different. Sometime ago I asked Ryan to provide a link to his FTP site (the link had been deleted by the time I read his post) in order that I could try to "encourage" the host to delete the account prior to Ryan being landed in this type of bother. Alas, although Ryan provided the link, I forgot to follow through.

  

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mauriceMon May-06-02 03:12 PM
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#97. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Hardware Freek (Reply # 94)


          

Well said, HF.
I was appalled at seeing so much use of the term "stealing" by adults towards a youngster in this thread, while no single adult here will deny that the entire business-world based on the so glorified 'free market system' involves "stealing" in a million different ways every day.
What about proportion ?

Moreover, if this is what we are supposed to see now as 'an educative action' towards a young person, consciously (i.e. not by accident) staged to 'get a point across', I honestly think that Ryans parents still do a better job at educating him.
Who the hell are we to think we can take over that task ?
Where does anyoneone of Ryans 'correctors' here remember his own youth, or even see the same enthusiasm that has grabbed him for the world of computers, as inspires all the rest of us here ?
And even if it was for the safety of this Forum, does that justify expressions like "I am ashamed to admit that you are a fellow Canadian....", "abhorrent conduct" or "You make a good case study for why corporal punishment should be returned to the classroom..." ???
What about reponsibility ?

If this should pass for an instructive and educative action towards a youngster I think this Forum has some introspection to do.
Other threads have discussed at length the vocabulary and ways of expression by the visitors here (e.g. in UD reports),
I for one find this thread a shamefull example of how I would NOT like this Forum to become known to outsiders.
This is not about saving the Forum, this is about its conviviality that has so often been praised in the past.

And why is it, that a moderator seems to have 'immunity' when it comes to keeping up or jeopardizing this widely known conviviality,
and even a collective verbal attack and threat on one youngster is condoned as 'for the sake of the Forum' ?
What started as a valid argument of forum-policy, has degraded into a mob-fight against one person, even after that person asked specifically to stop it, admitting 'having gone too far'. That such an unequal and therefore coward action is condoned as 'instructive', is what I truely find "abhorrent conduct".
Have we become so intellectual and self-righteous that it freezes our hearts ?

Shame on us, I say with HF and Bob G , and I include myself for being a regular and therefore co-responsible for the image that we thus project to the Internet.
All the above is as "OT" as most of this thread.
On the subject: piracy is as old as the world, as has been candice the privilege of the young. What do WE learn from them ?


Maurice.

  

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SpeziTue May-07-02 03:37 AM
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#136. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to maurice (Reply # 97)


  

          

>Well said, HF.
>I was appalled at seeing so much use of the term "stealing"
>by adults towards a youngster in this thread, while no
>single adult here will deny that the entire business-world
>based on the so glorified 'free market system' involves
>"stealing" in a million different ways every day.
>What about proportion ?

What would you call it then if not theft? You might also rethink the youngster thing. Ryan is 16 and in most cultures that's far from a child especially in this day and age.


>Moreover, if this is what we are supposed to see now as 'an
>educative action' towards a young person, consciously (i.e.
>not by accident) staged to 'get a point across', I honestly
>think that Ryans parents still do a better job at educating
>him.
>Who the hell are we to think we can take over that task ?


Perhaps part of the problem here is you are lacking history about Ryan. Patience and gentle persuasion has not been effective whatsoever with this lad. This is not the first time nor second nor third nor twentieth for that matter, he continually ignores forum rules and has also gone so far as to publicly post that his parents are happy with his tactics just as long as they don't have to buy him software. I doubt that myself due to the gift for twisting the truth that he possesses but nonetheless that is what he posted.


>Where does anyoneone of Ryans 'correctors' here remember his
>own youth, or even see the same enthusiasm that has grabbed
>him for the world of computers, as inspires all the rest of
>us here ?

Enthusiasm is not justification for breaking laws.

>And even if it was for the safety of this Forum, does that
>justify expressions like "I am ashamed to admit that you are
>a fellow Canadian....", "abhorrent conduct" or "You make a
>good case study for why corporal punishment should be
>returned to the classroom..." ???

Yes as a matter of fact those expressions are totally justified. Without having seen all the past posts and communications with Ryan I don't think you are qualified to judge what expressions are called for or not.

As a Canadian I have every right to take exception when someone goes out of their way to make us look like thieves and puts our morals at issue. FWIW I do remember my youth and had I even come close to doing some of the stunts Ryan pulls it would have been an instant trip to the tool shed.





>If this should pass for an instructive and educative action
>towards a youngster I think this Forum has some
>introspection to do.
>Other threads have discussed at length the vocabulary and
>ways of expression by the visitors here (e.g. in UD
>reports),

Now you're just comparing apples and oranges. This thread has nothing whatsoever to do with language or UD visitors.


>I for one find this thread a shamefull example of how I
>would NOT like this Forum to become known to outsiders.
>This is not about saving the Forum, this is about its
>conviviality that has so often been praised in the past.
>
>And why is it, that a moderator seems to have 'immunity'
>when it comes to keeping up or jeopardizing this widely
>known conviviality,
>and even a collective verbal attack and threat on one
>youngster is condoned as 'for the sake of the Forum' ?
>What started as a valid argument of forum-policy, has
>degraded into a mob-fight against one person, even after
>that person asked specifically to stop it, admitting 'having
>gone too far'. That such an unequal and therefore coward
>action is condoned as 'instructive', is what I truely find
>"abhorrent conduct".
>Have we become so intellectual and self-righteous that it
>freezes our hearts ?

Goes back to history and some of it dates back two years.
How many chances does one get in your world before enough is enough?
A gentler approach has been used countless times and gone ignored. If this thread is what is needed as a wake up call and it provokes some thought and reconsideration of the current chosen path then so be it.


>Shame on us, I say with HF and Bob G , and I include myself
>for being a regular and therefore co-responsible for the
>image that we thus project to the Internet.
>All the above is as "OT" as most of this thread.

>On the subject: piracy is as old as the world,

Yes so is stealing, killing, adultery and a host of other sins but that still doesn't justify them.





  

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cameronashawMon May-06-02 03:30 PM
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#98. "OT-Student Software"
In response to Hardware Freek (Reply # 94)


  

          

sadly, what you say HF is all true, i am a student in the UK at the min, third year of my 4yr degree, i get just under £3000 a year from the government (to be paid back when i get a job), at 2% interest a year (which is a good rate compared to normal loan i admit). However, that is all i get. No bursaries, sponsorships, scholarships e.t.c really exist over here. From that £3000 a year, i must pay £1100 to my uni in fees, leaving me £1900, then from that i pay £3200 rent (not including bills)! So immediately i am £1300 down a year, thats before any bills, food, books, clothes e.t.c. That rent deficit alone would mean i have to work at least 10hrs a week, every week that i am at uni, on top of my course and studying.

All in all, i have to rely heavily on my parents, even though i have been living away from home for over 3 years now..some friends are not as luck as me to have supportive parents, or parents who can afford to contribute £5000 a year to there studys and who will leave uni with going on £20 000 of debt to be repaid within a few years, so there first years of working will be spent paying off loans...

None of this justifies illegal software, but speaking solely for students in the UK (though im sure its the same in many countries worldwide), until students are better supported, and/or software is cheaper, i am not supprised in the least that most people i know use some illegal software of one type or another.

PS-sorry for the rant about the poor finances of students...

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MeehowskiMon May-06-02 03:39 PM
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#99. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 98)


  

          

Tough love......tough love...

Meehowski




  

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AlMon May-06-02 06:26 PM
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#100. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 98)
Mon May-06-02 06:32 PM

  

          

Hmmmmm..

Sorry, if I don't have any pity or sympathy for you. You have a choice, invest in your future or not. No one owes you it. It seems to me that student loans and other benefits that students can take advantage of are all positive proof that society in general believes in making getting an education possible. That doesn't mean it should be easy. Many, many students have held part-time jobs, worked long hours in the summer, and pinched pennies in order to make that investment. And at least some of them have had it pay off for them in their life. It is your choice. It surely isn't an excuse to steal (here we agree).

Maurice,

Sorry, but I don't agree with your generalization of business. Can you show me where the laws are that make capitilism illegal?



  

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andrini2000Mon May-06-02 06:31 PM
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#101. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to Al (Reply # 100)


  

          

Holy Toledo, Ohio!! This thread is heading towards the record books!!
Good luck Guiness.



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mauriceMon May-06-02 07:14 PM
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#102. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to Al (Reply # 100)


          

Hi Al,

Al wrote:

"Maurice,

Sorry, but I don't agree with your generalization of business. Can you show me where the laws are that make capitilism illegal?"
Unquote.

Jeez, Al, that subject alone could make up for another 100-posts-thread ! And be even more way-OT here.

Let me just say that, in the sense the term was used here, i.e. making someone else's years-long efforts worthless by means of copying, even if the product doesn't consist of software code,
I think you are amongst some of the best placed to judge, living in the Far East and looking at how 'capitalism' is understood, practiced and legally condoned over there !
My point being - as was made by others here - it happens, whether right or wrong, but let's not bash youngsters who with-the-click-of-a-button happen to grab what is so widely offered.
His only remaining fault being his candor and youthfull pride to speak about it here, would have merely justified a "shut up about that!"-remark, not the zealous we-are-all-so-perfect attitude that this thread swarms off.

And again - that is just my opinion, which I feel free to express here, without trying to persuade anyone to anything but to a little more compassion. This Forum would only benefit from that.


Maurice.

  

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t_bareMon May-06-02 07:21 PM
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#103. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to maurice (Reply # 102)


          



  

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SteveYandlMon May-06-02 07:34 PM
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#106. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to maurice (Reply # 102)


          

Ryan has had numerous polite scoldings regarding his support of software piracy. They have made little impact.

Software piracy is a big issue in my book. However, Ryan’s pirating of software in the past and his bragging about it in the recent past are not what triggered my response. He has edited the post where he made the statement but he stated that the teachers at the school he attends told classes to pirate AutoCad (over $800 application). If the teachers really told the class to do that, it is a serious crime in Canada where it happened as well as in the US where the software was written. If they didn't say that, Ryan has done them a great disservice by saying that they did.

  

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AlMon May-06-02 07:50 PM
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#107. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to maurice (Reply # 102)


  

          

I expect you are correct, that I am in a very good place to judge the results. And the results are rather interesting, to say the least, as companies fail here because of their failure to actually understand capitilism, and to try to make their success based on copying or on cash flow instead of on value, quality and profit.



  

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cameronashawMon May-06-02 08:39 PM
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#110. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to Al (Reply # 100)


  

          

Al, i am definately not asking for sympathy, I know that wont get me anywhere in life. I was merely saying that in some ways i know why certain people feel they need to steal software. I in know way agree with stealing software and have purchased everything i need legitimately though i cannot always afford to.
I also know that it is my choice to continue to be a student, however, saying that the measures put in place by society illustrates there willingness for people to continue in education i dont quite agree with. As i already mentioned, i can only talk about the British government, but we used to have student grants (smaller, but non repayable cash gifts), the same year they abolished grants, they brought out the larger loan to be payed back with interest, and the same year they also brought in that we had to pay over £1000 to the uni we attend in tuition fees. This immediately prevented a lot of people not being able to attend uni. Afterall, at the age of 18, coming straight from college into uni, not many people have much savings, so take the loan (the only kinda gifted income) deduct the fees, rent, bills, food, books, computer hardware, software and whatever else and you are not left with much money...As for saying you know many many students work part time to continue studies, tell me about it. I do work. I work at least 30hrs a week as a supervisor in a nightclub, on top of 28hrs a week of lectures, add to that study time and coursework and there are not many hours left. Im also training to be a commercial pilot hoping that one day my study will pay off. Again, this post was not meant as a rant as too how hard a life students have, but what does annoy me is when people seem to think that students merely sit around all day, drinking, clubbing and spending all the governments money...I know that is not what you neccesarily said, but it still annoys me somewhat to say that it is my choice, im sorry for wanting to better myself...Surely, if the government believes that further education is going to reap better rewards for the individual in the future, they could give out bigger loans and recoup it with bigger interest...thats if they really believe in what they preach.

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 08:54 PM
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#113. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 110)


  

          

If the government had any interest in providing quality education to all of its citizens (at least in the U.S.), they wouldn't have laws like they do in Washington State. If I, with a wife and child, desire to get an education, i'm pretty much on my own as far as the state goes. No child care assistance unless both parents work full time, no day care unless its state-approved (which means a minimum of 600/month in a shithole like Pullman), and definitely no help with family housing or medical expenses. I've got a bill sitting in front of me for $1,500 bucks for an MRI i had to have, state insurance basically said "screw off, you pay it", add to that the fact that they will only cover 12 sessions of physical therapy, and both my doctors have said that a minimum of 24 will be required. PT runs about 80 bucks a session, so thats 12 x 80 = $960 = a lot of money I don't have, then add in an emergency surgery to remove a piece of glass from my hand a year ago, there's another $3,100...you see where I'm going with this? Al is DEFINITELY correct, and a new report from the American Council on Education backs it up. 3/4 of all students in the US work while attaining a 4 year degree. 1/4 work full time jobs. sorry for the RANT, i just get pissed off when i see a state institution trying to keep me down, trying to keep me poor so that they will have jobs next year. When will they learn that it just ain't gonna happen? }>

  

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AlTue May-07-02 04:36 AM
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#139. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 110)


  

          

Why do you expect any government assistance? It's your life you are investing in, isn't it?



  

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Bob GTue May-07-02 04:42 AM
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#140. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to Al (Reply # 139)


  

          

That's what governments are for }>

  

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AlTue May-07-02 06:39 PM
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#153. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to Bob G (Reply # 140)


  

          

Guess that depends on your view of governments...



  

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Bob GTue May-07-02 08:04 PM
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#154. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to Al (Reply # 153)


  

          

I take a pretty simple view. A government's primary reason to be is to better and protect the lives of its citizens, and the society/culture they define. A government investing in the education of it's citizens, is really just investing in the future of that society. Same idea as, say, food stamps. If you see just the individual it's easy to criticize, but seen as a whole, food stamps keep the economy moving by keeping money moving - a good thing in capitalist society.

  

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AlWed May-08-02 03:40 AM
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#162. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to Bob G (Reply # 154)


  

          

I don't agree, but I see your point.



  

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Bob GWed May-08-02 08:51 AM
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#167. "RE: OT-Student Software"
In response to Al (Reply # 162)


  

          

Yeah, I know, I just thought we could tack on another 100 odd posts to this thing in some pointless argument, for, I don't know, posterity or something

  

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SteveYandlMon May-06-02 07:22 PM
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#104. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 86)


          

doctormidnight and Bob G,

While the two of you are not in complete agreement with my methods, you make valid points and I'm inclined to pay attention to what they are. There are others here who've supported Ryan on grounds that they probably realize are shaky but they make their arguments anyway.

1. I'm not going to apologize for calling piracy stealing and those that do it thieves.
2. I'll never accept that piracy is acceptable because software costs too much for some to afford. What Ryan refers to an "emergency situation" isn't a valid excuse either.
3. I will continue to consider use of software to try it out when the author doesn't offer trials as stealing. There are inexpensive stripped down versions of most expensive software that ironically contain most of the features software pirates would actually use. If one needs a trial, buy one of these low price versions or settle on what you can afford.
4. If anyone in this forum chooses to publicly libel a teacher or other person, I will not apologize for inviting the wronged party to visit our forum and set the record straight.
5. I am one of the moderators and while I rarely exercise the powers Alex has afforded us, I don't need permission from Alex or any of the other moderators to handle this sort of thing the way I choose. I ask for and accept their advice but I make my own decisions.

doctormidnight - Believe me, I've limited the amount of content from Ryan's emails that I've shared here. He used email because he didn't want some comments seen by the entire group and I won't use that as ammunition against him. I think that was one of your major concerns.

Bog G - This is far from the first time I've discussed this sort of thing with Ryan. I don't always have the time to read Ryan's posts but the moderators need to because numerous polite scoldings in the past have not worked. I think I have his attention now.

Ryan - I have a copy of this entire thread archived on my PC. I have a letter prepared and addressed to alert your teachers. I've not sent it yet. I don't care what your beliefs are regarding pirated software; share them here again and I'll follow through with my threat to contact your school.

  

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MeehowskiMon May-06-02 07:31 PM
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#105. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 104)


  

          

What about his parents??

Steve....are they aware of his chicnaery??

Meehowski








  

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ShellyMon May-06-02 08:25 PM
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#108. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Meehowski (Reply # 105)


  

          

According to past posts by Ryan, they have encouraged his piracy of programs he wanted.

Shelly

  

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ShellyMon May-06-02 08:46 PM
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#111. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 108)
Mon May-06-02 08:47 PM

  

          

I am really getting weary of all the lame excuses for stealing. There is no valid justification for theft, unless possibly to prevent the starvation of you or your family.

I was a child, and not from a well to do family. I was taught by my parents that it was wrong to steal. I have been in business all my adult life and have never stolen from anyone.

I went to school and got my education by going in the military and getting the GI Bill. It paid for my education, but I gambled my life in payment for it, so don't cry about student debt to me. Nobody owes you a living!

Yes, programs like AutoCAD are expensive. It costs a lot if money to create them, and the size of the market for them is very limited. But there are many fine alternatives to AutoCAD at a small fraction of its cost. Perfectly usable cad programs are available for under $200. Older versions are even cheaper, and there are huge student discounts available.

If you decide to go through life stealing from others, at least have enough self respect to not try to justify it to yourself or others, YOU ARE A THIEF! Accept it! Otherwise, you are both a thief and a liar.

Shelly

  

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cameronashawMon May-06-02 09:49 PM
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#116. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 111)


  

          

Shelly, I dont want to get on your bad side as i respect everything you post (as i do almost everyone else here), but who are you ranting at here about the student debt part?
If it is me, since i was the one mentioning the student debt, then please re-read my posts. In none of them did i actually condone stealing, especially not excusing it because of being a student, i have purchased all my software and will continue to do so, so if this post is aimed at my ranting of student life please do not call me a thief or liar since i have never condoned stealing, do not steal myself, or any such alike, and if you are refering to my posts then i am deeply offended to be publicly called a liar or thief where there are no grounds to do so.
I agree in your belief that stealing is not excusable under any circumstances. As for getting the military to pay, that was one of my ambitions. I was signed up to the Navy at 16 for a Naval Pilot Cadetship which would have seen me comfortably through student life, unfortunately i developed asthma, which means i will never be eligable to be a pilot for the Navy or RAF in Britain, so i fell at the first hurdle. Believe me, i would have loved to pay my debts by serving in the forces, and do not rule out future involvement as i am now almost a qualified aerospace engineer, though i would still love to fufil my dream to be a pilot.

Anyway, i do not want to create a bad atmoshphere with anyone in this forum as i respect everyone and there opinions in here

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ShellyTue May-07-02 01:07 AM
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#128. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 116)


  

          

I had no intention of linking mounting school debt with theft, nor did I, but there were some posts suggesting that the cost of going to school was a justification for piracy of software. It is NOT! It is only a means of rationalization.

Shelly

  

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HauxfanMon May-06-02 08:53 PM
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#112. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 108)


          

Well, Shelley, you know what they say. "The fruit doesn't fall to far from the tree."


  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 08:31 PM
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#109. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 104)


  

          

That was actually the only concern I had.

  

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Bob GTue May-07-02 12:57 AM
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#127. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to SteveYandl (Reply # 104)


  

          

Well Steve, I've gone and read every post here as of #125, and the most insightful comment was made by Al. He referenced Ryan's learning the consequences of his actions, and that's the central point here, I think.

It doesn't matter that he uses or even promotes and supports illegal activity, what matters is not doing it here. He's been asked and told too many times to count not to do it, yet he persists. It doesn't take a careful reading of his posts (all of them, not just this thread) to see that he's yet to learn that actions have results, that behavior has consequences, and that they are the responsibility of the individual.

This thread is actually a result of that. His instinct after a dumb mistake was to find someone to bail him out. A fine line between this and legitimately asking for help, but a rather obvious pattern with Ryan. Intellectually, I think you're correct in your actions. But my problem is my default view of the world is emotional, and, rather than make me angry, he makes me kind of sad.

  

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SpeziTue May-07-02 03:56 AM
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#138. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to Bob G (Reply # 127)


  

          

Very well said BobG and reflects my sentiments regarding this thread 100%.

  

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justMikeMon May-06-02 09:46 PM
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#114. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to ryan auclair (Reply # 0)


  

          

Im just curious, is downloading Music with audiogalaxy or other music manager stealing?

  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 09:48 PM
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#115. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to justMike (Reply # 114)


  

          

it can be, depending on the circumstances.

  

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justMikeMon May-06-02 09:51 PM
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#117. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 115)


  

          

what circumstances? im just trying to figure out if im a thief.

  

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 09:58 PM
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#119. "RE: Help!!! (emergency - important source code accidently deleted)"
In response to justMike (Reply # 117)


  

          

The issue is basically ownership. For example, i have a shitload of records (yes, vinyl) that I don't have on CD. As far as I know, and someone needs to correct me if I'm wrong, there is no problem with me downloading an MP3 of, for example, a track from Pink Floyds "Umma-Gumma" or Depeche Mode's "A Broken Frame", since I own the records and just not the CD's. Also, if I have a CD, like my copy of New Order's "Substance" which is scratched on a particular track, I'm pretty sure that downloading that track is ok.

  

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cameronashawMon May-06-02 10:34 PM
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#123. "Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 119)
Mon May-06-02 10:36 PM

  

          

doctormidnight, from my understanding of the law (British), though im sure it applies many places, it does not matter if you already own the CD, you may not copy/obtain any copyright material. Even if you own the CD, you technically are not allowed to make a copy of that CD, be it back up or anything...we all know that many people back up there CD's in case of accident/damage/loss e.t.c but technically it is against copyright laws.

Same as, if i own a book, which i destroy, burn e.t.c (whatever i do to it), and borrow a friends copy, photocopy it, then this is copyright infringement.

I suppose its all a case of what you can do with a clear conscience, but copying any copyright material is illegal...

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brettMon May-06-02 11:36 PM
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#125. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 123)


          

>doctormidnight, from my understanding of the law (British),
>though im sure it applies many places, it does not matter if
>you already own the CD, you may not copy/obtain any
>copyright material. Even if you own the CD, you technically
>are not allowed to make a copy of that CD, be it back up or
>anything...we all know that many people back up there CD's
>in case of accident/damage/loss e.t.c but technically it is
>against copyright laws.

No it isn't. It's perfectly legal to make a backup copy of any software/music which you have purchased. It only becomes illegal when and if you attempt to distribute such copies. In fact, the threat of legal action has actually forced a number of vendors to remove copy protection which prevented backup copying by persons with acquired rights.

However, for those of us on this side of the pond, this is due to change. In April last year the EU passed a directive (with which all member states have 18 months to comply) enabling copy-blocking encryption to be applied by copyright owners and making it an offence to cirumvent such protection measures. This will apply even if you have purchased a CD and are simply wishing to make a copy in a different format in order to transfer it to transfer it to a MP3 player.

More information can be found here:-

http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/eucd/

  

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cameronashawMon May-06-02 11:46 PM
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#126. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to brett (Reply # 125)


  

          

thanks brett, good link.

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giddyrigTue May-07-02 02:16 AM
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#130. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to brett (Reply # 125)


          

I was about to post the same thing that it isn't illegal here in the US to "Record the music for your own use". I, as a musician, prefer to support artists (although mostly you are supporting labels) by purchasing their music. Many music stores here, where I live, actually have a policy which allows you to return music purchased within 2 days for 50% store credit to buy more music with. And it doesn't matter if you burn a cd, or store it in an MP3, just as long as it is returned with all the packaging and materials included AND the original CD isn't scratched. This works pretty well, especially if you aren't picky about having the original packaging and such. Eveyone gets paid and everyone is happy. With Some CD's, I like to have the original, but mostly, I can settle for a copy. Best of all, legality and morality aren't a question, because all legal requirements are fulfilled.

I think that downloading music (aside from legal and moral implications) is really a joke when considering that most (almost all) music downloads aren't of even good or marginal quality as far as sound goes. If you are a serious audiophile, you don't even consider downloding music, because it's generally a waste of time because of the poor to marginal quality of the result. Don't tell me that you can get an exact duplicate in quality online when it comes to music. (I can tell the difference), and I can tell you that you can record a better quality copy off the radio. (if you are that determined) I don't have any download clients like Kazaa, or Morpheus anymore because it's simply not worth the hassle, and I respect the artists enough to buy their music. I admit I *did try the music downloaders for a while, but I ultimately wasn't impressed by the end result. Besides, when I want to evaluate a CD, I can just take it to the counter at my favorite music store and ask to hear it before I buy it, and they will let me.

I think that professional respect, be it music, or programming should be observed regardless of legal or moral duties, and I find it strange that someone would steal when they, themselves would howl like hell if they were deprived of the fruits of their hard work.

When it comes to music and software, one must realize that you are comparing apples and oranges when it comes to the laws regarding them, and apparently the laws also depend on where you live. Although where I live, you can burn a copy of music you purchased, you often can't do the same with much of the software. IMHO, I do think that EULA's need to be more uniform, and less confusing, AND I think that once they are published they should not be able to change them retroactively. Often they are surrounded in a linguistic fog so thick that makes many lawyers scratch their heads in wonder while hacking through it with their legal machettis. It seems "some" sofware companies are better at manipulating legal language than they are at program language.(But that's another thread) That's just my opinion, so shoot me!

  

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doctormidnightTue May-07-02 02:20 AM
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#131. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 130)


  

          

Bang!

You must get pretty good reception to be able to record music off the "radio" (and by that I'm assuming you aren't referring to satellite radio) and have it sound better than an MP3 recorded at 320 kbps.

  

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RoniTue May-07-02 03:24 AM
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#135. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 131)


  

          

It is difficult to tell the difference at a high bit rate, some other things you need is a good MP3 encoder, and an audio card that is not inside the extremely noisy environment of the computer or at least an audio card with the ADC outside the computer case.



  

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cameronashawTue May-07-02 02:22 AM
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#132. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 130)


  

          

i find it hard to believe that it really is legal to purchase music, copy it, then return it for 50% credit towards further purchases!!! Are you sure this is really the law. That would make little sense. Plus, you say the artists win, but sureley someone somewhere must lose out since the returned music must go somewhere, maybe sold second hand cheaper meaning when born the record label and artist get nothing that time round???

Just wondering...

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giddyrigTue May-07-02 02:45 AM
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#133. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 132)


          

Yeah, it's legal, if it wasn't, you wouldn't be able to take all your old second hand CDs and sell them for cash or store credit like they do at many music stores and pawnshops even though they often won't give you much if they are older. Have you ever bought a second hand music? Same principle, except you have to do it within 2 days in order to get the 50% store credit, and the store never re-sells it as new, so it's discounted for the next customer. The Artist actually already got paid for this purchase in the recording contract long ago.

  

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cameronashawTue May-07-02 02:54 AM
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#134. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 133)


  

          

ok, i understand that selling second hand is legal, that wasn't an issue, but what i didnt think (and am still not sure) is that making a copy for yourself before 'selling', returning or whatever is legal or not infringing copyright. Surely thats no different to borrowing from a friend and copying which im sure is illegal?

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giddyrigTue May-07-02 03:43 AM
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#137. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 134)


          

Recording music for personal use is legal in the US. It's just not legal to distribute or use for public purposes (unless you are a radio station with proper authorization) Once you have originally purchased the music, you can record it and store it, you just can't distribute it or sell it. The Record companies get a percentage of profit from recording media like blank CDs, Tapes, etc., in exchange for the consumer to be able to record for their personal use. (A kickback if you will). This is made possible and legal by the Copyright laws and Fair Use Act.
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/title17/92chap1.html
Check out in particular: § 114. Scope of exclusive rights in sound recordings
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#114

  

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AlTue May-07-02 04:49 AM
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#141. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 137)


  

          

Of course, once you sell that CD back to the store (which is what you are doing) the fair use act no longer applies and the copy you have made is illegal.



  

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doctormidnightTue May-07-02 05:01 AM
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#142. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to Al (Reply # 141)


  

          

Exactly, transferring the CD (as in, transferring it to the store or to another person) is transferring any rights you had to begin with.

  

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giddyrigTue May-07-02 06:03 AM
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#145. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to Al (Reply # 141)


          

Perhaps you are missing the fact that I'm only getting 50% of what I originally paid for the CD, in exchange for store credit. It's not as if I have paid nothing for the music. If I pay $14.00 for a cd, and I record it, return it for $7.00 in store credit I paid for it, I'm only getting half of the value I originally paid. In the exchange, I get to keep the sounds, but I give up the original CD, packaging, etc., I get store credit to buy more music. So tell me, where did I break the law? I would like to see exactly where this is illegal, can you show me any laws that specifically target this sort of transaction? If this is Illegal, then purchasing the music online and downloading your purchase would be illegal in that you do not have an "original recording" on hand. Any stores that buy used cds would in effect be aiding these violations, and I find it hard to believe that national stores like Hastings, Budget, etc., would willfully contribute to breaking the law. It doesn't make sense. I "DO NOT" have illegal copies! I DID pay for them!

  

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JPTue May-07-02 06:06 AM
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#146. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to Al (Reply # 141)


          

Of course, once you sell that CD back to the store (which is what you are doing) the fair use act no longer applies and the copy you have made is illegal.

Bingo Al! And such behavior as copying the CD and returning it to the store is what has put and end to being able to return software for a full refund. Too many people were abusing it.

JP

  

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giddyrigTue May-07-02 06:29 AM
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#147. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to JP (Reply # 146)


          

>Of course, once you sell that CD back to the store (which
>is what you are doing) the fair use act no longer applies
>and the copy you have made is illegal.

>
>Bingo Al! And such behavior as copying the CD and returning
>it to the store is what has put and end to being able to
>return software for a full refund. Too many people were
>abusing it.

Wrong again! You are missing the point, I am NOT getting full value of the music back. Music does not fall under the same legal category as software. I'm going personally to speak with the owner/manager of the store in the morning to double check on the employee's quote that "They have researched the legalities in this type of thing and it is fully legitimate."

  

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JPTue May-07-02 06:44 AM
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#148. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 147)


          

I dunno there, giddyrig. It seems that in essence you are paying half price for the CD to begin with, since that's what you get back from the store. And then the store turns around and sells it as a returned item for perhaps 2/3 or 3/4 of the origional price? Something doesn't seem quite right to me there.

Most stores charge perhaps a 10% restocking fee, not 50%. If your happy with that arraingment though, then go for it, you are essentially getting the music at half price plus the cost of the blank disk.

JP

  

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giddyrigTue May-07-02 07:19 AM
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#149. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to JP (Reply # 148)


          

I'll let you know what I find out in the morning from Fred, the Owner of the music store. I will find out what resources he's used as well, I'm quite confident, as I have known these folks for years, and they have always been straight shooters and respectable businessmen. Although I'm reasonably sure, I would like to be 100%. I have been researching this subject on the 'net using Google and Ixquick among other search engines without much confirmation or clarity either way. Could it be uncharted waters? Perhaps, but if it turns out that I am proven wrong, by either my own discovery or someone else's, I will publicly offer my apologies and acknowlege the correction. Thus far, I have not found any bonafide reference where this is illegal in the US. About the closest logic to this that I could find (so far) is that if you as the consumer, are paying the tax, fee or royalty for the blank media, then you have paid the music industry for the transfer of the music to the blank media, I'm not satisfied with that finding and I could be wrong. This thread is getting long, and I'm way off topic here, can we make this a separate topic? Should I post my findings here, or can I make it a separate post?

  

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doctormidnightTue May-07-02 08:10 AM
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#150. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 149)


  

          

Giddyrig, I'll see if I can get in touch with one of the guys from Media Law when I take my final tomorrow, I would think they could give us some concrete information. I'll post back as soon as I get an answer.

BTW, just because you are only getting back 50% of what you paid in no way indicates that you are NOT giving up your fair use rights. Thats just the market, dude. I wouldn't give you full price for a used CD, for all I know you could have used the shiny side to snort coke with

  

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giddyrigTue May-07-02 08:26 AM
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#151. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 150)
Tue May-07-02 08:30 AM

          

I never had a problem with getting 50% towards in store credit. Most places give far less than that for used CDs. Just because I pay 50% doesn't necessarily mean anything either way, but at least I'm researching it, that's fair enough isn't it? I also buy some of the used and new CDs from them as well(to keep). I really doubt there's anything to be alarmed about. I honestly don't believe that what I'm doing is stealing/or illegal. I may be wrong, but if so, then so be it.

  

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AlTue May-07-02 05:43 PM
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#152. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 151)


  

          

I recommend you check with a copyright lawyer, not the owner of a music store. Having worked in a field covered by the copyright laws and fair use laws, I am very sure of what you will find out.



  

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GroganTue May-07-02 08:27 PM
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#155. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 151)


  

          

Well... It's not the store that is breaking the law. That is probably what they are saying is legal. Trading in used CDs, itself. That is where their involvement ends. It would also be legal for you to buy used CDs.

Now, if you really think about it, you've got to realize that making and retaining a copy of a CD you sell back to the store is cheating. I don't personally care and I wouldn't judge you for it, but for the sake of this discussion there is no way that can be lawful.

In fact if you take the copyright messages at face value (which we'll argue isn't lawful either), according to them, you are not allowed to make any copies at all. In fact, one of the things they were lobbying for, was to make the rights to the content non-transferrable (bastards!). That's unlikely to become lawful.

Same with software, simply because you click "Accept" does not necessarily legally bind you to conditions that are not lawful in the first place. It is not exactly a contract signed and sealed with witnesses in the presense of attorneys.

Grogan

  

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giddyrigTue May-07-02 09:19 PM
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#156. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 155)


          

Check this out:
I have Spent much time researching this subject,

and I'm happy to say that I am, in fact, NOT

voilating any laws in regard to the "Burn and

Return" policy of the local music stores. I, and the

music store(s), are in compliance with the "First

Sale Doctrine" wich gives the Original

user/purchaser the distribution rights to the

copyrighted work, like CDs, etc.. Also, section 109

gives more of the specifics of the law.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/109.htm

It would not be legal, for instance, if I purchsed a

CD for $17, burned it, returned it, and they gave me

say $16 in credit or money and they then turned

around and repackaged it as "new". Since they

*Do Not give more than 50% in credit AND, they

*Do Not repackage the CDs as "new". no laws are

being violated. There is no law against them having

a very liberal return policy.

Another source I have contacted is N.A.R.M.

(National Association of Recording Merchandisers)

which I am still waiting their reply as of yet.
http://www.narm.com/

Many of the competing music stores have

contacted NARM in regard to the legality of the

"Burn and Return" policy, and were told that the

policy did not violate any laws.

I have also e-mailed a few law firms in regards to

this issue, and still awaiting a response at this

time. I would contact a *local legal representative,

if I thought I could get the Info from him at no

charge, but everyone seems to want money so far.
I have also posted on the Prairie Law/Lawyers.com

forum and still awaiting a response. I will keep you

updated.

If this were illegal, how could one justify purchasing music from a "legal" source online for download. I still say that the result is the same, because I have still paid for it, (it may be discounted by 50% after all is said and done, but I still have the music I paid 50% for, minus the original CD and Packaging.

  

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KJTTue May-07-02 09:52 PM
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#157. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 156)


  

          

Is there a restriction on the amount the retailer can charge when they re-sell the returned CD? If not, what a great business model. Get one in-high-demand CD, sell it over and over and over for nearly the original retail price. Pure profit. No wonder the law is written as it is. It's a wonder more sellers don't do it this way. Don't you suppose the retail world had a hand in fashioning the law?

Jim.

  

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giddyrigTue May-07-02 10:40 PM
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#159. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to KJT (Reply # 157)
Tue May-07-02 10:42 PM

          

I believe there is a limit on what a used CD can be sold for, perhaps in relationship to the original price or whatever the going rate is... still not clear on that yet, but part of the deal is that they cannot give back more than a certain percentage in the exchange. For example, of a CD sells new at $16, and it is returned for half value, it will most likely re-sell for about $10. I thought it was pretty ingenious of them, however, a lot of other music stores, which I don't know if I can name in a forum, were really steamed about it, and actually contacted the N.A.R.M. about it and were told that there was nothing wrong with it. It wouldn't surprise me if someone does eventually sue over something like this, but until then, they are in compliance with the related laws.
If recording or burning music is actually illegal, that would probably make somewhere between 85-95% of the entire US population criminals and you could probably include me among them. If recording music is illegal, then why does the music industry get a royalty for blank media? I have found in many of my searches that the laws are still being hammered out and this *is in fact, relatively uncharted waters, and some laws actually seem to contradict eachother, however, as it stands as far as I know, I haven't broken any laws.

  

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doctormidnightWed May-08-02 12:33 AM
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#161. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 159)


  

          

The recording industry gets royalties on blank media ONLY if that media, specifically CD-R's, are designated as "Audio" or "Audio Only". As far as I know, they don't get jack for data CD-R's.

  

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AlWed May-08-02 03:47 AM
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#163. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to giddyrig (Reply # 159)


  

          

A law firm is insufficient. You need to speak to someone who specializes in copyright law.



  

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giddyrigWed May-08-02 07:20 AM
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#164. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to Al (Reply # 163)


          

I have contacted a lawyer that specializes in consumer law, which does by the way, encompass the spectrum of copyright law, and he confirms to my satisfaction, that no laws or enforcable policies are being broken. I know that I will probably never be able to convince *everyone of that, but at least, *my mind is at ease and I have and will sleep pretty well. (except for the fact that I work graveyard shift ) Anyway, this is my last post on this topic, so believe what you want about me... demonize, or agree, whatever... (my concern can be measured in a micro give-a-sh--) Don't sweat the petty, pet the... I'm outty!

  

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cameronashawTue May-07-02 10:33 PM
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#158. "RE: Music Downloads - doctormidnight"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 155)


  

          

what you say is true grogan, a contract that includes unlawful terms is never lawfuly enforceable, it becomes void and anyone who tries to enforce it would get nowhere in the court, afterall, how can you tie someone to 'abide by' unlawful acts?

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cameronashawMon May-06-02 09:53 PM
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#118. "Music Downloads"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 115)


  

          

if your downloading from almost any known artist, i.e. music that is released for general sale, then you are almost always going to be infringing copyright, i.e. illegal.
Even if the artist is unknown, they may still have copyright on there material and you could be breaking the laws. Its best to stay clear of downloading any music files from the internet, which you have paid nothing for and are not from a reputable music site/ record label site (or alike)!

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justMikeMon May-06-02 09:58 PM
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#120. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 118)


  

          

ok thanks, i guess im a thief.
best change my ways..

  

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cameronashawMon May-06-02 10:03 PM
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#121. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to justMike (Reply # 120)


  

          

unfortunately, its just to easy a way to get hold of something for free, i dont condone it or those who practice it, it is crippling the music industry and money to fund new acts is dwindling which is a huge shame to everyone, much of the best music would never have come if it wasnt for funding new artists.

Unfortunately, i think so many people do it as everyone likes something for nothing, despite what many people will say, its human nature to want things without paying, and becuase its not really a physical object people dont seem to realise its stealing. Maybe if more effort was made to track the huge uploaders...who knows!

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doctormidnightMon May-06-02 10:06 PM
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#122. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to cameronashaw (Reply # 121)


  

          

"it is crippling the music industry and money to fund new acts is dwindling which is a huge shame to everyone"

CD sales are at record levels, have been on that track since about 1998.

  

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ShellyMon May-06-02 11:20 PM
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#124. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 122)


  

          

I am certainly not a lawyer, but my understanding of copyright law is that the only music that can be legally downloaded for free is material that is in the public domain, and whose performance is also public domain. The exception is material and performances offered by the creator for free distribution.

This means that just because Beethoven's Fifth is public domain, you can't download a copyrighted performance of it by the NY Philharmonic, because that recording is not in the public domain and the orchestra, musicians, and recording company, are entitled to royalties.

Let your conscience be your guide.

Shelly

  

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ZakBobTue May-07-02 01:51 AM
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#129. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 124)


          

Im not sure that this is posted before. But Ryan, What if you someday have reliexec a real company making millions, And your software is the best stuff out there. do you want some kid out their trying to justify stealing software, YOUR software. I dont think you would.

  

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EdTue May-07-02 05:25 AM
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#144. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to ZakBob (Reply # 129)


          

Ryan is a perfect example of why "Caning" should be implemented in Canada. Loping off the hands for stealing is too messy.
A petty thief is still a thief!
ed

Accept challenges, so that you may feel the exhilaration of victory.


General George S. Patton






ed


OS - Windows 10 Personal PS3
DELL DIM 3000 Intel P4 2.25 GHZ
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andrini2000Wed May-08-02 07:30 AM
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#165. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to Ed (Reply # 144)


  

          

Agreed, but, does anybody really tell the WHOLE truth when reporting their taxes??
Yes, stealing is stealing.
If you found a wallet with alot of money, and also inside was the persons name, address, phone...how many of you would call that person?



Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

  

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vitaltWed May-08-02 08:40 AM
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#166. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to andrini2000 (Reply # 165)


  

          


I would!!!.....why?... wouldnt you?




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Vitalt

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doctormidnightWed May-08-02 08:58 AM
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#168. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to andrini2000 (Reply # 165)


  

          

LOL, i always do my taxes honestly...when your broke, what the hell are you gonna lie about

  

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andrini2000Wed May-08-02 11:08 AM
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#169. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to doctormidnight (Reply # 168)


  

          

LOL...that was a rhetorical question.



Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

  

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agbFri May-10-02 05:18 AM
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#170. "RE: Music Downloads"
In response to Ed (Reply # 144)


          

>Ryan is a perfect example of why "Caning" should be
>implemented in Canada.

Ryan in this post has been taken to task for his irresponsible behavior.IMHO he is repentant and also ready to change,which will only succeed if he leaves the bad influence of Timmins.Perhaps he should put himself up for adoption.I am sure there will be a lot of kind souls on this forum who will adopt him, and help him change his thinking inviting him to live south of the border so that "caning" can also be implied in order to improve his behavior.

I would also like to congratulate Ryan for creating a longest post (to my knowledge) with this contorversial subject.

AGB}> }> }> }>

  

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