Due to the outcome of one of the recent posts here at PC 911, I am faced with a decision.

I dont know who all saw what conspired between myself and one of the moderators here, and it really doesnt matter i suppose.

In the time since my last posting, I have been doing alot of thinking about how I handled the situation, and i still stand by my opinion. I dont feel I was wrong, and I am sure there is someone who might agree with me.

But thats behind us now.

In light of it all, I no longer feel comfortable here, and I have decided that I wont be back. There are many forums around the web, but unfortunately none as good as this one. I will miss it.

But I cant seem to muster the guts to stick my neck out and even ask a question here, and I dont think that is the intent of this forum.

So to all those who have helped me in the past, Thank you.

Stay well all..its been fun


t_bare

T-bare,
I'm not aware of what you did, but trust me...we've all offended some or felt foolish or hurt with some of the replies. Welcome to life!
In the earlier part of my life(aka youth), I was a thin skinned, hard hearted person. As I've acquired some life experiences and God forbid, matured a nudge or two(still makes my skin crawl to type that), I've gotten more thick skinned and soft hearted. I know NO perfect human beings. We all have our "less than perfect" moments. Allow yourself and others those moments if you care to be at all content in your life.
Hope to see ya back soon!

Please stay.
I don't know what happened but I have made an ass out of myself several times...went to a corner and pouted for a bit, but then returned because this is a nice forum and I like the people here.
Give yourself some time away - a breather - and then just come back.


Lonnie

Lonnie
Vista Home Basic
Compaq Presario SR2163WM
160GB SATA 3G
1536 MB
RoadRunner HSI
MSE,CCleaner,SWB,Irfanview

For those of us in ignorance please elucidate on what has transpired to make such a drastic reaction to a post by one of the family of PC911.

Was this about the Morpheus post? I saw it and thought nothing of it beyond two people with differing views (happens every day here). In another post you two will find yourselves in total agreement. Just brush it under the rug, put it in it's compartment, and move on. Nothing more you can do. At one of those other forums you'll evetually encounter the same situation, and more than likely the other party at one of those other sites will be far less civil than any of the regulars here. I've been there, and here. You've enjoyed your time here, is it really worth giving it all up over a simple disagreement? Just put the whole issue in it's place instead of letting it take the reins. I know how you feel, but believe me it looks completely different to anyone else. To me it looks like zillions of disagreements I've seen here, by regulars who are mostly all still here and still posting. The person you disagreed with is like that with ANYONE he disagrees with, including other team members, he's not afraid to speak his mind. And he'll think NOTHING of you posting again, and he'll be just as quick to provide help when you need it (I speak from experience).





Zema Bus

Zema Bus

Nobody here (Well, maybe not Marti because she's a wonderful human being) has never got in a heated argument with another forum member or moderator. It can hurt feelings. I got in a dreadful pissing contest with one of the moderators here over a political issue earlier this year. I seethed over it for days, but eventually decided it wasn't worth losing this forum and all the great people here. I still don't particularly like that moderator, but he treats me courteously and still gives good advice. I try to return the same courtesy. Get past it and move on, you'll be glad you did.

Dang Trebuchet. Just one more post from you'll already beat me to the 1000th post. Hehe!

T_bare, please stay. You've been a great help to me. Juz like the others have said - Welcome to LIFE.

P o w e r e d -by- T e c h n o l o g y

Intel PIII 1Ghz Processor
ASUS CUSL2-C i815EP Mobo
256mb Kingmax PC150 SDRAM
Le

I haven't a clue as to what post you are talking about, I probably haven't seen it (I don't read them all). Everybody would have a better understanding of what's going on if this post was in that thread, instead of creating a new thread.

JP

Believe me when i tell ya i have BEEN there and DONE that here. I've had a few very heated, um, "discussions" with a few folks here, once or twice with a moderator, no biggie. We can't all see eye to eye all the time, being human we lose our cool once in awhile. It's a healthy thing to do on occaision actually. Like you said, this IS the best game in town, so hang around, the ruffled feathers won't stay that way long.

RussH

t_bare, I really am sorry you feel that way. About leaving!

I have watched with interest to some of the help you have provided. Even applied some of it to my needs. I am upset that you will no longer be a part of what we all need and that is, good advice to keep these things operating.

I have some strong opinions as others here will atest. And I've been hurt by some responses. I have learned it ignore the hurts and moved on. After all, in the long run, it really doesn't matter. In a hundred years from now, who'll know or remember. I still have my opinions, likes and dislikes and I'll continue to express them. Some agree, some don't, but at least you'll know where I am comming from. I also have an opportunity to listen to another's view and maybe change my mind about an issue.

Hope you stay! I REALLY need the help!

Slo Hands

Two Rules:

Rule 1: Don't sweat the small stuff.

Rule 2: It's all small stuff.

Go out for a walk. Go shopping ( Good for guys and gals ). Enjoy the holiday spirit and let it go.

One more thing. Opinions are neither right nor wrong. And everybody has them....

Have a Merry Christmas and get yer butt back here

I sure as hell can understand where your coming from t_bare. I have gotten those smart-ass responses myself, but you can't let one arrogant computer snob deter you from enjoying corresponding with your buddies. Like you said this is a great forum and most of the people are sincere in trying to help. I am 55 yrs. and am a late starter on computers and I have learned a lot since I've been reading the posts. Stick around t_bare.
flatcat

Don't leave just because you had a disagreement with me. I'm but one person here. I do speak up when I see something I don't like though.

I said what I had to say, and I'm over it. You said what you had to say. Why do you still have a problem?

Grogan

Everyone here has an opinion on just about everything, and everyone else is free to agree or not. Being a moderator has nothing to do with the weight of an opinion. I certainly am not always in agreement with the views of another moderator, but they are all my friends. I have never met another moderator face to face, yet I value their presence here. When I find myself in strong disagreement with a view, I look at it in the context of all of their views that I share, and all the help I and others, have gotten from them over the many years I have participated.

Any relationship in life is like that. In a friendship you accept the whole person, warts and all, or it is not a friendship. I am a callous old fart, and long past caring who comes here, who stays, or who goes. If someone joins this community, it is because they find it useful in some way to be here. If they decide to go over some perceived slight, it is their decision and their loss.

Two days ago, a friend of mine here in town was murdered. Shot dead in his own driveway by someone. He too was an engineer, who occasionally did work for me. Forgive me if I am in no mood to be concerned about imagined sleights.

Shelly

Shelly very sorry to hear about your friend .What to hell is this world coming to anyway?Damn when I grew up we went away to camp for 2 weeks,and never locked the doors to the house.I'm not even sure they had locks,but if they did we all had one of the old skeleton keys.

I'm like most everyone else here,I sometimes agree or disagree with what is said,or how it was said.But heh life is to short to worry about that crap.Opinions are like @ss( o ) ,we all have one.Tuff

T_bare,You should change the topic line ! Trying but won't,we can if we want,but sometimes we won't.JMHO as always

I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. My condolences to you as a friend, and please pass on my condolences to the family of your friend.
Life is too short for petty things...friends - true friends - are always there when you need them. Family is supposed to stick with family, but they don't always.
I find this forum as an entended family - the ups and downs concern me more than my own family, since my family really doesn't give a damn about most things that happen.
Again, Shelly, my sorrow is your sorrow.

T-bare - please stay and be a member of this family...we all need help, in one form or another.

Lonnie

Lonnie
Vista Home Basic
Compaq Presario SR2163WM
160GB SATA 3G
1536 MB
RoadRunner HSI
MSE,CCleaner,SWB,Irfanview

Very,very sorry to hear about your friend Shelly. My condolences.......

Shelly, I'm the same boat as you this week, although the death wasn't the result of murder, just old age. I know how it is.

JP

t-bare I have no idea what thread you are referring to (pretty busy lately and can't read all threads) but trust me, I think many of us have been in the same boat. It's a great forum and place to be and as others have already pointed out the next place will have the same problem eventually with maybe an even more nasty outcome.

No law says we all have to agree all the time and Lord knows I've had my share of "discussions" but in the end I just give in to the fact that we all differ and leave it at that. We are a family of sorts here and as the saying goes Sh%# happens.

As in any group of this size there is no way all participants will get along well nor will we all see eye to eye. Alas such is life.

I attempt to treat everyone with respect whether I like them or not and hope that they will do the same. Sometimes you may be surprised to find that the ones you disagree with the most may turn out to be your best friends.

Tomorrow is a new day t_bare, just let it go and move on.

Hope you reconsider as you hold the distinction of being my closest geographically located forum member.

Whatever you decide, take care and best of the holiday season to you my friend.


PS:Just saw one of the other posts. If you got into it with Grogan about Morpheus I can just imagine where that went. Never get into a discussion about file sharing programs was my lesson. LOL. Been there done that. Just remember Grogan is a fellow Canuck though and we must stick together never mind the fact that he's saved my bacon a few times when I got lost in PC geek speak. (Happy Holidays Grogan )

Thanks Spezi, I appreciate it.

Grogan

Yes Grogan, Happy Holidays. I read the thread in question and you were your ususal self, blunt and to the point. I don't recall if you have jumped on any of my posts, but I just don't take anything said here persoally. If I am wrong, I will admit it on go on. I've been in computing for 34 years and still learning everyday. PCs are a small part of what I do and am currently working on a new Data Base for a clients AS/400 and take a break by Alt Tabing over here alot while programs and files are compilling and completing. Just keep up your fine contribution to this community and hopefully others will develop a thick skin and realize that your contribution is in the best interest of this Foum and is not for personal gain.

Overwhelmed here people.

Thank you.

Shelly especially.. Very sorry to hear about your friend, I guess it goes to show that life IS too short.

And Grogan - thank you. I guess I had you pegged wrong, and for that I owe you an apology. You have been a great help to me in the past and I guess I should know from reading the posts that your replies are rather no-nonsense: a quality I should be admiring rather than taking to heart.

18 responces to this and here I thought I wasnt being heard.

Your all great people.

Taking a break for a couple days here to cool my jets and get my lip back into position.

Happy Holidays people

t_bare

Season's Greetings to you, my friend. See you when you get back.

Lonnie

Lonnie
Vista Home Basic
Compaq Presario SR2163WM
160GB SATA 3G
1536 MB
RoadRunner HSI
MSE,CCleaner,SWB,Irfanview

Hey, I haven't been visiting this site all that long, but if there weren't a little controversy and some differing opinions I think I'd be the one to leave.

Dave

Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

t_bare

I think it does matter. Why should you be the one to apologize? You were, and are, absolutely correct to take some offense at the shabby way you were treated in that other thread. Your statements there were right on the money, and you were sort of screwed over a little by someone who seemed to be taking advantage of his position as moderator.

If the "head honcho" (Alex) states a forum policy, why shouldn't other moderators also be required to adhere to it and promote it themselves? Or can they just make ad hoc policy on the spur of the moment, as it suits them? If they can contradict published policy, why have policy at all? Are rules really rules, or just guidlines and suggestions?

From an early November thread discussing help in downloading with Morpheus:
http://www.pcnineoneone.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=26716&forum=computer

Reply #1 - Alex: "we do not discuss, encourage, support, condone, enable, or promote any form of piracy here in this forum, and that includes music."

Aren't the terms "discuss" or "encourage" or "enable" all pertinent and applicable to helping someone solve a problem with either installing or using Morpheus? Where is the difference?

Reply #5 - Alex: "but the other 99.9% of people who use morpheus and password cracking programs and the likes use it for illegal purposes, and therefore it will not be discussed here."

The word "discussed" appears to be pretty much all-inclusive. And "it will not be discussed here" doesn't leave much room for doubt or misinterpretation about what he meant. If Alex makes clear unequivocal statements like those, why does Grogan feel free to contradict or re-interpret them? If this policy change has been cleared with Alex, why doesn't Grogan say so?

From a mid-December thread discussing help installing Morpheus:
http://www.pcnineoneone.com/dcforum/computer/29346.html

Reply #6 - Grogan: "Furthermore, it's a legitimate PC question, regarding the installation of a piece of software. Software that isn't even illegal. I'm reminding you that you are out of line, per your own request"

This seems to be really splitting hairs. Alex made no distinction between discussion about the installation versus the use of Morpheus and other similar programs. How many people would care that they couldn't install Morpheus, if they didn't already intend to use it? If you solve their installation problem, aren't you at least tacitly assuming and condoning their use of that program? How can someone possibly be out of line for pointing out and promoting Alex's own policies, which have already been previously established and published?

Reply #10 - Grogan: "That's all I need to see, it's not up to me or you to judge others. Where do you draw the line?"

Alex seems to have already made a judgment and drawn a line, so indeed why should it be up to Grogan? He then proceeds in Reply #7 to help solve the Morpheus installation problem, in direct conflict with Alex's stated policy.

Nobody should ever expect this place to be an absolute democracy. If the moderators disagree, they ought to discuss and settle it among themselves, and then at least present a united front in open posts.

If not, then maybe Alex could state that the most recent statement by any moderator automatically becomes the new version of forum policy. Or maybe moderators should be more explicit about whether their statements are just their own personal opinions.

In the end, the real questions seem to be:

Are all moderators equal, or are the others assistants to Alex, with limited scope and authority?

Are all moderators independent and free to give interpretations contrary to Alex's stated policies?

All moderators are people.
All people in this forum have the right to speak their minds.
if Alex has, or had a problem with what Grogan said, i am quite sure he has spoken to Grogan about it. It isn't for the general public to know what the moderators are told.

RussH

You all know that I, also, got all bent out of shape long time ago and stormed off slamming the door behind me on my way out of town. Members here spoke to me about it all as they did t_bare and I realized that leaving home wasn't the answer.
I would expect that, as things seem to have settled down with these two as they do with intelligent beings, it appears ill advised to open up the wounds again......

I just call em like I see em. I see someone trying to make trouble here.

Grogan

Because Grogan is Grogan,he and his considerable knowledge belong here! Good show t_bare. }> Pat

Thanks for the support PsychLogical, but this one is done.



t_bare

Psycho,

You going to start paying us for this job?

When you do, you'll have a say in how it runs. Not much of a say, but a say. In the meantime....

"You going to start paying us for this job?"

No, but I understood that when I purchased Crucial RAM last month through the link here, PC911 got some portion of the price. Whether moderators personally benefit from that would seem to depend on any compensation agreement between them and the forum owner, I guess. If you work for free, I assume you do so by choice, rather than under duress.

"When you do, you'll have a say in how it runs."

I wasn't asking for and don't want a say, I was expressing an opinion -- which is still allowed here as far as I can tell. If you meant that all opinions must agree with those of the moderators, perhaps that should be explicity stated is the forum guidelines.

"In the meantime...."

What? Shut up, because you're a moderator and you say so?
Or because I disagree with the way Grogan handled the matter?

Is there some overall implication in your response?

Why does being paid even matter in this particular instance?

Are statements above reproach because they're not paid for?

Are statements more correct or accurate when they're not paid for?

Are all statements made by moderators (other than Alex) "untouchable"?

If moderators work for free, is that some justifaction for them to:
• contradict published policy?
• help with installing or using programs that "...will not be discussed here"?
• call that kind of program "...a legitimate PC question"?
• disparage another member for "...quoting rule sheets"?
• state that "its not up to me...to judge others"?
(Moderators don't also judge?)

If members are expected to follow the rules, moderators should also.

I have read a lot of threads here, but have yet to find one where a moderator apologized or admitted a mistake. If you know of such a post, please provide a link. No rush.

PsychoLogical: Let it go. As T_Bare stated, it's over. There are a hell of a lot more important things in life than getting into a pissing match over something as insignificant as this thread.

There was a disagreement. T_Bar got over it. No point dragging things out. It's Christmas. Be with your loved ones and friends..... and never forget Sept,11,2001. Peace.

Is it possible for all to place the apparent anger behind them? There are times that people are curt, opinionated and even out of line. OK, so now that we have proven that we are human let's move on. T'bare seems to have, so why not you Psychological? It's the end of the year, a holiday season, and a time for all of us to close out the year with some semblance of civility and forgiveness.
Grogan's response to the person who felt offended was accepted and responded to in an outstanding manner. Case closed.
By the way, a Happy and Peaceful Holiday Season to All.










http://www.bobbalogh.com/

Basically, Psychological, I do not feel the need to justify anything I say or do to you. You're welcome to your opinion, but on this issue it means very little to me.

Grogan

Should we ever need a legal opinion on the running of PC911, we will surely call upon you for one.

None of us work for pay, nor are we the kind of people who could be told what to say about anything. Alex is the last person that would wish to have people on the team that could be controlled. In reality, it works just the opposite, Alex seeks out a consensus before anything is decided upon. We are a diverse group, and often see things differently, and we always speak our minds. When there are differences of opinion we work it out among ourselves civilly and rationally. I have never seen a word written in anger among us, because we have earned the respect of each other.

If your goal is to stir up trouble here, you haven't got a chance.

Shelly

Good to see that your going to still be around T. This place needs all the input it can get as none of us are usually looking directly at the computers in question when there is a problem; so the more knowledge the better. Fact is I was watching that thread and agree with you completely as did Psych but I also respect the fact that as humans we all are different just like snowflakes and that is what makes us special. To truly enjoy this life we must seek out our connection with our family and make the most of it. If we can't do this than at least learn to enjoy the feeling of a good contest of wills. No human is a god, if we were we wouldn't be living here. HEHE. Take care all. You have given me many hours of enjoyment as I have watched the workings and goings on of this place and I grow to love it just that much more. I look forward to working with you all and even getting into a few flamers of opinion differance and than making up. May the computer gods guide you well and your experiences be helpfull

Stranger than life

I would like to disassociate myself from this posting.

The case is closed, and i am done pouting.

PsychoLogical, it looks to me like your just venting some concerns with the way things are being run around here. Unfortunately this particular posting has become the soap box from which you voice your opinion.

So for the rest of the readers of this posting, its out of my hands now.

Good luck with it.


t_bare

Hey t_bare, I am indeed truly sorry that all of this happened. That I can say without reservation. Neither of us needs to take back anything we've said though. As far as I'm concerned we're cool. I certainly required no apology from you.

However I've had enough of this thread also and I think I'll just lock it. Very rare that I do anything that utilizes my "moderator" status in here (just what do some people think the "position of moderator" that I abuse is, anyway, besides having some administrative functions not accessible to other users?) but I think I'll exercise that priviledge here and now.

So anyone who has a problem with this is cordially invited to send all complaints to me personally, where you'll be told to:

Grogan