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npmclTue May-16-06 07:27 AM
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"77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"


  

          

Quote:
Tuesday May 16, 2006
The Guardian
More than three-quarters of police officers in England and Wales do not want to carry firearms, even though more than 40% have faced life-threatening situations in the past two years, a report reveals today. The Police Federation poll, released at its annual conference in Bournemouth, found 77% of respondents rejected routine arming of frontline officers, despite 5.7%, the equivalent of 7,000 throughout the 43 English and Welsh forces, having had guns pointed at them, while 28% have been threatened with knives. A total of 41.6% had been physically assaulted while arresting suspects.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,1775705,00.html

  

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garbruTue May-16-06 11:15 AM
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#1. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

That is crazy, I would never wish to be in a position such as a police officer without a firearm. It should be mandatory.

  

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MykTue May-16-06 11:54 AM
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#2. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

I bet that's about as true as the polls our media releases from our cops.

If that poll is true most of your cop friends will think the same way.
If that poll is like what gets released here, you will have a very hard time finding any cop who agrees with it.
Do your own test.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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npmclTue May-16-06 12:24 PM
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#3. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 2)


  

          

This wasn't a media poll, it was by the Police Federation, that is their own organisation.

  

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giseudaTue May-16-06 12:38 PM
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#5. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 3)


  

          

It's hard to imagine any cop confronting a violent criminal without a firearm. When you're looking down the barrel of a pistol it tends to level the playing ground.

  

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MykTue May-16-06 04:34 PM
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#9. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 3)


  

          

Quote:
This wasn't a media poll, it was by the Police Federation,
that is their own organisation.


OK, I realize we speak totally different languages but try really hard this time. Re-read that and find me where I said anywhere that it was a media poll.

Guess what, our fake polls like the one above are produced by police organizations too. They claim to represent the rank and file yet they do not.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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JordanTue May-16-06 12:28 PM
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#4. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

It appears that the pussification of your country is approaching completion.

  

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npmclTue May-16-06 12:38 PM
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#6. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 4)


  

          

How typical of a gun-crazy "culture".

  

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jazz4freeTue May-16-06 05:05 PM
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#11. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 6)


  

          

Noreen, it's an excercise in futility to propose to a gun culture an alternative to facing confrontations with anything but a healthy exchange of small-arms fire.

  

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npmclTue May-16-06 05:28 PM
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#13. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 11)
Tue May-16-06 05:34 PM by npmcl

  

          

Yes I know that really. However if I lived in a country where all the police and many of the civilians need guns to protect themselves and their loved ones from criminals I wouldn't boast about it, I'd be ashamed.

  

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MykWed May-17-06 05:26 AM
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#24. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 13)


  

          

Yet you have no problem living in a country where they lock up a man who defends himself against criminals and won't release him because his lack of remorse shows that he may pose a threat to other criminals that might break into his home.

And you wonder why you are now the most crime ridden country in western culture according to the UN.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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ShellyTue May-16-06 01:52 PM
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#7. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 4)


  

          

The police in England, when I was stationed there, never carried guns unless they had a court order permitting them to for a specific operation. They did not need them either. The metropolitan police in london were not only mature, but highly trained. I saw one in downtown London take down a fleeing suspect by throwing his baton at the suspects legs from about 30 feet away. You never heard of anyone shooting at police in those days. That is a far cry from some of the gun happy hotdogs patrolling our streets.

What you call "pussification", an intelligent person might consider civilized.

Shelly

  

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JordanTue May-16-06 04:15 PM
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#8. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 7)


  

          

Many things were different back when ....

  

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MykTue May-16-06 04:41 PM
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#10. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 7)


  

          

Quote:
an intelligent person might consider civilized.

No, an idiot would consider it civilized to have disarmed civilians which caused the arming of the criminals and then call for disarming the cops.

An intelligent person considers personal freedom and personal responsibility civilized.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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GauthreauTue May-16-06 09:47 PM
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#16. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 4)


  

          

>It appears that the pussification of your country is
>approaching completion.

Wouldn't pussification be the exact opposite of what you claim? I would say that it takes a mighty brave person to willingly put themselves in harms way without a firearm.

Neil

============================================


In the computer world, there’s a right way, a wrong way, and the Mac way. The Mac way is essentially the same as the wrong way, except it’s much faster and on a much larger scale.

  

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LesTue May-16-06 05:26 PM
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#12. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

I don't know the exact wording of the question, but if the question was "do you want to carry a firearm" I'm surprised that more of them didn't say no. If, however, the question was "do you need to carry a firearm" I would imagine that a vast majority would say yes. I guess it's all how you phrase the question.

I find it a bit misleading to publish the results as three quarters of the officers do not want to carry guns as meaning they all want to leave their guns in the station and patrol the streets unarmed.


Les

  

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npmclTue May-16-06 05:41 PM
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#14. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Les (Reply # 12)


  

          

Quote:
I find it a bit misleading to publish the results as three quarters of the officers do not want to carry guns as meaning they all want to leave their guns in the station and patrol the streets unarmed.

No it doesn't mean that and I didn't say that, they haven't got guns.

  

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LesTue May-16-06 06:07 PM
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#15. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 14)


  

          

Ahhhh ok Noreen. I thought that they already carried weapons and given a choice of wanting to or needing to they would prefer not to.

Les

  

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440roadrunnerTue May-16-06 09:53 PM
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#17. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Les (Reply # 15)


          

I can't speak for the accuracy of that poll, but I will add this-----with these fanatics in the world today, willing to commit SUICIDE to "make a point" (whatever it is, I surely do not know) any cop would be NUTS to enter a situation without a firearm of some description


Yes, Shelly, the world has changed. I see more and more where folks are willing to "step up to the plate" to thwart would be robberies here in the states, including banks, convienience stores, and so on.


(If I's a cop I'd want say, a .223 and a banana clip, maybe even a scope)


Now 'afore ya all start the flame war thing, consider this---what would be suicide person would want to blow himself up when he knows the cop that's watching him has a .223 that he can hit with several hundred yards away?. Just consider, please.

(Then, there's .308, 338mag, etal)

  

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LesTue May-16-06 10:59 PM
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#18. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to 440roadrunner (Reply # 17)


  

          

And the .50 Cal sniper rifle. From a mile away he wouldn't even hear the bang before meeting his reward.



Les

  

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ShellyWed May-17-06 12:12 AM
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#19. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Les (Reply # 18)


  

          

Of course you are perfectly capable of identifying a bomb wearing terrorist a mile away, and justify shooting him and verifying your analysis later?

Shelly

  

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LesWed May-17-06 03:06 AM
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#22. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 19)


  

          

Of course I wouldn't do it that way Shelly. It was a bit tongue in cheek, but, if the situation presented itself a well trained sniper team could take out a bad guy and he would never hear the shot.

Les

  

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MykWed May-17-06 05:31 AM
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#25. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 19)


  

          

>Of course you are perfectly capable of identifying a bomb
>wearing terrorist a mile away, and justify shooting him and
>verifying your analysis later?

Duhh, the guy with the bomb was the one who made the biggest splat.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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PauliezWed May-17-06 12:28 AM
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#20. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


          

I was with NYPD for twenty years. I went to England twice to extradite suspects. While I was there my partner and I were permitted to carry our weapons and just about everyone we came in contact with that knew that we were armed seemed very uneasy with us, including British Police officers. That was back in the seventies. Back then there was a respect for the police in England. It was a very big NO NO to kill or try to kill a cop, no matter what. But because of the dramatic increase of violent crimes in this world and the UK, I am surprised that with that increase they are not armed. One thing I remember hearing from an inspector from Scotland Yard on my second trip there in 75 was (and this was on the QT) that officers that were dissatisfied in any way with any of the polices (mostly the lack of being armed) that came down from the higher-ups in the UK, were usually dismissed for any number of off the wall reasons. Most, he told me wanted the ability to be armed at all times, because of the many times they made contact with suspect that were armed. I am very surprised to hear that 70% do not want to carry firearms.

Something that I know is, carrying a gun every day can and does give you the feeling of being invincible and that, in some cases, can very easily lead to miss-using that gun. That I found is true for the bad guy and the average citizen. But in today’s world, in this country, all cops are taught (until they know it better than they know their own name) to only use there weapons (deadly force) as a last resort, contrary to what Hollywood movies have lead allot of people to believe.

“More than three-quarters of police officers in England and Wales do not want to carry firearms, even though more than 40% have faced life-threatening situations in the past two years, a report reveals today.” I don’t believe that.

I believe …. “More than three-quarters of police officers in England and Wales do want to carry firearms” but IMO their job security is very important.

Oh incidentally, in my time, while as a patrolman, I have brought down many a fleeing perp with my nightstick. Takes allot of practice and a few lost nightsticks to learn how to do it, but it worked very well. That same feat is almost impossible with the design of batons that police are required to carry today. Again “IMO.”

  

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ShellyWed May-17-06 01:21 AM
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#21. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Pauliez (Reply # 20)


  

          

Having spent most of my life in NY, NJ, and New England I would agree that the police there only use deadly force as a last resort. When I moved to the south it was a revelation, here it seems, more often than not, a first resort.

Shelly

  

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PauliezWed May-17-06 03:07 AM
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#23. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 21)


          

That's a shame Shelly. As I said carrying a gun can lead to miss-use especially if it is in the hands of anyone not level headed enough to know when and where to use one. In my twenty years as a cop I saw some (not many) cops who needed to use the shield of their guns to back up the enforcement of the law rather than the use of their training and shield (badge) to do the same. Eventually they were weeded out and dismissed. What is sad is the fact that those same ex-cops were picked up and hired by other PD's through out this country just because they were considered already well trained by NYC. (In other words it wouldn't cost a dime to hire them.) Also saw many, many citizen wind up in jail for manslaughter and or being sued and losing that suit for wrongful death. There is no item in anyone’s house or on anyone’s land except the preservation of their life and the life of others that is worth considering the use of deadly force.

PS. I am a firm believer in the second amendment. I believe anyone who has the s**t between his or her ears together should own and have the right to bear arms. Those who don’t have their s**t together, well…they should think about what it’s like to be nailed for manslaughter and or wrongful death.

  

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MykWed May-17-06 05:50 AM
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#26. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Pauliez (Reply # 23)


  

          

Frank Serpico was shot in the face in '71 after 12 years of trying to avoid and get something done about corrupt NYPD to get them "weeded out". It took a year after that for him to testify and how many years after that to clean up the corruption that went from below the very bottom (with officers no longer on the payroll but still employed on the take) to the very top.
You're going to have a hard time playing up that rosie picture of '70's NYPD.

I would have a much easier time believing you if you painted a story that was closer to what I know to be true.
Yes my friend stole drugs out of evidence to deal. Yes he was "weeded out" of that department. He wasn't locked up like any other drug dealer and thus was available to get hired somewhere else.
I know the Chief in a nearby town threatened a friend for wanting to press charges on a cop. That cop was later arrested for putting his girlfriend in the hospital. I guess it was hard to threaten her into letting it go.

I want to believe that eventually Serpico got his way and the NYPD had all their weeds picked, but I know it wasn't that way as late as '76 and judging by the cops I know from small town America to big city America, there are plenty of weeds on every force.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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PauliezWed May-17-06 09:25 AM
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#28. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 26)


          

First if I was to paint a picture of what it was and is like to be a cop in NYC I would only be able to use bleak colors.

Second sounds like you believe most cops are in the wrong because of some bad ones. Sorry you should feel that way. What is true is that most cops I knew and know today do want to enforce the law to make life a safer place for us to live. There is a large element of baddies out there that need to be dealt with. Easy to say and very hard to do.

Third, yes I had first hand info on cops that were bad and like many of my fellow officers did not look the other way because of some fictitious “Blue Code” we had. One bad one made the rest of us look bad. So we acted the only way we could and removed them from our side and the force. If they were violent or deadly, then they became someone’s punk in the slam. Every day in every state there are police officers that are being fired and even jailed. In fact here in Hartford CT a cop is being charged with first-degree manslaughter. http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-copjury0516,0,3683777.story?coll=hc-headlines-home

Fourth I graduated from the academy in late 70 and only new of Serpico. What I did know is that what the public was told about him was mostly Hollywood type media hype. The real story that I was privy to at the time was he was an eight ball, (he only kept his job with the NYPD because of the strong PBA), was a loner, had ties to a “family” and got caught with his hands in the cookie jar. (Details, from what I was informed, were too numerous to remember) A twelve-year NYPD veteran will do anything to stay out of stir with those he put there. So he became a rat for the state, and thus his “wounds”, his medical discharge, (yeah he did not leave voluntary) and the (Knapp commission), which was really around under another name long before he started singing. He not only had his corrupt fellow officers, to worry about but the family he was “supposedly friends with”. He was no “HERO” By the time I made Plain Clothes in 73 most of the garbage about him and the NYPD was cleaned up. I think 300 were fired, fined, retired or jailed. That’s 300 out of a police force of over 35000. (Not counting in my time, New York City’s TPD. PAPD, HPD, SPD, FDPD, Sheriffs PD, Marshals PD etc. (Yeah I sometimes needed a score card too). Still, not as bad as CA.

As I said in my last post, carrying a gun can and does cause changes in some and if they have problems before that gun then after the possession of that gun, those problems can multiply. Possesion of a gun can and does sometimes bring to some a feeling tremendus power.

You know you said something about small town police departments, I can believe the kind of corruption your talking about. Ran into it in some of my travels. That’s why some states now (not many) have State Officers living in a town or city as Resident Officers to over see the local PD’s. Most of those State Officers work with and for their states IA division, so they do carry a very big stick.

One good thing has come about with the computer age and that is, it is getting harder and harder for eight balls to become cops or for bad cops to go from one PD to another.

(end of novel)

  

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MykWed May-17-06 06:12 PM
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#32. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Pauliez (Reply # 28)


  

          

Quote:
Second sounds like you believe most cops are in the wrong because of some bad ones.

No, but I know that cops who try to paint the picture of "most cops are good" aren't telling the truth. If I am able to name you at least one bad cop on every force that I'm seeing from the outside, there has to be plenty more that could be seen from the inside but are ignored because of a "brotherhood".
I know there are good cops, but I also know there are plenty of bad cops and the Code of Blue keeps them silent or weeds them out if they aren't silent.

I know 2 cops who left their career in police work because of corruption. One because he didn't like having the force's corruption stuck on his name. Another because he dared to stand up against the corruption and could sense what happened to Serpico coming his way. (That second one was very similar to your weeding out claims. So one good cop tries to weed out one bad cop. The bad cop is suspended with pay for a few months, the good cop is forced to quit the job by the "brotherhood". Who's getting weeded out here?)

The local chief covering up for what he obviously knew was a bad cop makes that whole force suspect, crap has a way of flowing down.

You can tell me of one cop going up for manslaughter. I can tell you of 2 groups of cops who got away with murder. One a murder that any blind person could look at the coronor's report and clearly see the shots were to the face of a guy on his knees begging for his life not someone coming at the cops in a threatening manner. The other a murder of an estranged girlfriend after they broke up, which the whole force had a hand in covering up.

It's not just small towns and you know it. Chicago had to have the FBI come in because the cops were dealing guns and drugs. They still hire gang bangers for their force.

I was in an internet discussion with a "good cop" mad about how people treat them. It ended up coming out that this LA cop had multiple IA investigations. Of course he was innocent, just like the people the prisons are full of, except they don't have a brotherhood to keep them from going to prison. He also spend most of the thread threatening people with violence.

Hearing "hands in the cookie jar" stories from people who shot him or let him be shot are always credible. You wouldn't believe that from criminals so why would you believe that from cops who are criminals?
His current activities point to the "Hollywood" version being more true than the corrupt police force's version.

If 300 were caught there was probably at least 3000 involved and probably 30,000 who knew about it. Just like with any other crime you don't catch anywhere near the number involved.

You good cops won't fix the problem by claiming it's not there to the public. We know it's there, but every time we try to help or need your help in fighting it the Code of Blue comes into play. I'm not even allowed to mention that I know about the good cop who turned in the corrupt cop and was pressured off the force. His sense of right and wrong made him do it but the Code of Blue makes him afraid.

Just tell the truth. If you do you will be seen as a truly good cop. But when you try to cover up what we all know you are seen as a way the problem is allowed to continue.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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npmclWed May-17-06 07:43 AM
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#27. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

The Police Federation are having their annual conference at the moment which why the poll was taken. In the course of the conference it was stated that although the majority of police officers DO NOT WANT TO BE ARMED they would like the number of specially trained and authorised armed officers to be raised from the present 5% of the force to around 8%. I think that proves the point that the poll was a true reflection of their views.

The reason for this difference between the general American view and the British view is really a chicken and egg problem. Americans appear to believe that because criminals generally have guns then the police and population must also have guns. The British view is that as long as the police and population don't have guns then the criminals generally also won't need guns, obviously we do have a minority of criminals who do use guns. We also believe that once the Pandora's Box of arming the all police officers (or allowing any guns for the population) is opened there will be no way of stopping the rapid escalation of the use of guns "on the street" as they now seem to have in America and we don't have in Britain.

  

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PauliezWed May-17-06 09:42 AM
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#29. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 27)
Wed May-17-06 09:46 AM by Pauliez

          

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm

http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/1/20/115342

Don't worry, it still isn't close to the US.

  

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npmclWed May-17-06 12:25 PM
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#30. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Pauliez (Reply # 29)
Wed May-17-06 12:26 PM by npmcl

  

          

Yes we know that gun crime has risen, mostly caused by the influx of "yardie" criminals from the Caribbean. The second link is just selective pro-gun propaganda.

I think that these different ideas have come about because of the different histories of the two countries. I imagine that by the time police forces were established in America many of the population were already armed and considered it their right to be so. Whereas in Britain when our police forces were established the population had never legally possessed guns except for sport and so never considered it their right to be so.

No amount of argument here will change the fact that WE don't want armed police on OUR streets or guns in OUR homes.

  

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MykWed May-17-06 06:20 PM
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#33. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 30)
Wed May-17-06 06:22 PM by Myk

  

          

Wow, what a case of denial.
You ban guns for lawful citizens and guns for criminals go up. You blame that on imported crime (I remember when the big conspiracy was that the NRA was sending illegal guns to your country, I guess that one was too unbelievable).
Yet you still think that if lawful citizens and police give up more guns the criminals will eventually come around to understanding that they don't need guns to rob you.

You really don't understand the criminal mind.

Quote:
No amount of argument here will change the fact that WE don't want armed police on OUR streets or guns in OUR homes.

That would hold more water if so many in your country hadn't been worrying about the fact that WE do want armed police on OUR streets and guns in OUR homes.
Sorry, if you get to complain about our country we get to complain about yours.

Pauliez, already gave his personal experience of cops in the UK had better go along to keep their jobs. That makes the survey just as suspect as our police surveys which have the same tactics. It seems that in both of our countries police work is very political and you'd better tell the man at the top what they want to hear or lose your job.

Quote:
Whereas in Britain when our police forces were established the population had never legally possessed guns except for sport and so never considered it their right to be so.

Wrong. You didn't start your disarmament until early in the 1900's. You've had police longer than that.

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GroganWed May-17-06 06:42 PM
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#34. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 33)


  

          

Also, do you want to get shot or do you want to get your guts scrambled with a knife or be beaten half to death, twice? Unless you're Bruce Lee in the movies, even a gang of 15 year old punks will kill you. Difficult choices and either way you lose. You might not have if you would have had guns on your side. The bad guys are going to have guns anyways, if they want them.

Perhaps you've heard on the news what's been going on in Ontario cities (especially Toronto), supposedly in a country with very strict control of firearms, especially restricted ones like hand guns. There's gun play in the streets, at busy shopping centers, at convenience stores, clubs and donut shops get shot up etc. Pretty much all illegally obtained firearms. The cops are of course armed, but they can't be everywhere. Citizens aren't, or at least they'd best not be because they would be comitting a serious criminal offense.

A knee-jerk reaction to the escalating gun violence was a proposal to ban handguns altogether even for law abiding target shooters and collectors. Like that would work... lol (glad it didn't get very far because it would do nothing to solve the problem)

I'm betting though, that most cops wish they didn't need to have firearms. They can dream.

Grogan

  

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ShellyWed May-17-06 03:16 PM
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#31. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Pauliez (Reply # 29)


  

          

We have had a sharp rise in murders, mostly shootings, this year in Jacksonville. We are up to 60 so far this year in a city just under 1 million population. The sheriff is under fire to do something about it, and the mayor and city council are up in arms over it. Until this year the murder rate had been dropping.

Just the other day a 13 year old girl was killed in her home while doing school homework, by a stray bullet that entered the house from a shooting outside in the street.

Yesterday a 10 year old boy died in the hospital from a ricochet. He was in his family car with the rest of his family parked waiting for the registration to begin for a summer camp. A thief came up to the car and demanded their money at gunpoint. The father gave him the money, but the thief then tried to get into the car and the father shot the thief dead. There was no information released on whether it was the fathers gun or the thief's that resulted in the ricochet.

There are a lot of citizens licensed to carry concealed weapons here. A few yeas ago a thief tried to hold up a local restaurant full of people eating breakfast on a Sunday morning, before he knew what was happening a half dozen patrons drew their guns and shot the thief.

Shelly

  

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ablibWed May-17-06 08:50 PM
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#35. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 31)


  

          

Cops without guns. LOL what a joke. I can't believe this is real.

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclWed May-17-06 10:02 PM
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#36. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to ablib (Reply # 35)


  

          

It's because we don't live in America.

  

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ShellyWed May-17-06 11:41 PM
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#37. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 36)


  

          

It's not quite the same as it used to be there either. The last few times I visited I saw police with assalt weapons at the airports. It struck me as quite a change. When I was living there for over three years, I never saw even one firearm (other than ours). We all are living and adapting to a very different and far less desireable world.

But as far as ordinary crime and criminals are concerned, Britain handles it better than any other country I have ever been in, and I have been in most.

Shelly

  

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ablibThu May-18-06 02:53 AM
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#38. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 36)


  

          

So a cop in England is never going to be faced with a shootout? Or a gun being pointed at them? Hostage situations? This never happens in England?

Visit the Basement

  

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PauliezThu May-18-06 03:44 AM
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#39. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to ablib (Reply # 38)
Thu May-18-06 03:46 AM by Pauliez

          

Hey the damage is done in the UK. Sorry to say the crime rate will go up and more inocent citizens will be hurt or killed. That's what happens when you open the door for the bad guys.

Something I remember from the last pages of the book "In Cold Blood".

"What does it add up to, anyway? Well, four innocent and two guilty people murdered. Three families broken. Newspapers have sold more papers. Politicians will make more speeches. Police and parole boards will get more blame. More laws will be passed. Everybody will pass the buck. And then, next month, next year......the same thing will happen again. Well, maybe this will help to stop it.... Never has.

  

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MykThu May-18-06 05:26 AM
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#40. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to ablib (Reply # 38)


  

          

Quote:
So a cop in England is never going to be faced with a shootout?

Of course not, it's not a shootout if you can't shoot back

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ablibThu May-18-06 05:45 AM
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#41. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 40)


  

          

its just going to be a kill....the cop.

Visit the Basement

  

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jazz4freeThu May-18-06 11:20 AM
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#42. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to ablib (Reply # 41)


  

          

Obtuse! Noreen and Shelly have been spitting into the wind.

  

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npmclThu May-18-06 12:12 PM
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#43. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 42)


  

          

As you said at the start of this thread James, it's really just a waste of time.

However it did liven the place up a bit for a while, it's been deadly dull lately.

  

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ablibThu May-18-06 08:20 PM
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#47. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 43)


  

          

"So a cop in England is never going to be faced with a shootout? Or a gun being pointed at them? Hostage situations? This never happens in England?"


It would seem answering my very good question seemed like a waste of time to you.

Can you answer it? Do these things happen in England?

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclThu May-18-06 08:48 PM
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#49. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to ablib (Reply # 47)


  

          

See my post 27.

Quote:
although the majority of police officers DO NOT WANT TO BE ARMED they would like the number of specially trained and authorised armed officers to be raised from the present 5% of the force to around 8%.

  

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ablibFri May-19-06 01:32 AM
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#51. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 49)
Fri May-19-06 01:32 AM by ablib

  

          

"So a cop in England is never going to be faced with a shootout? Or a gun being pointed at them? Hostage situations? This never happens in England?"

ok question not answered again.

I'll answer it since the question appears to be difficult for you. The answer is yes, all cops in England will be faced with these situations too often to not carry a gun. And unfortunately they're (the cops) are going to lose. All because they're too ignorant to carry a weapon.

I'm anti gun. Anti-gun for the citizen at least, I see no reason why private Americans need guns. But law enforcement is a different thing. When I got some scum pointing a gun in my face I don't want to pull out my baton and try to baton him to death as he's shooting me.

I just thought of something. Briton cops also don't wear body armor because it's a pain in the ass or they don't need it right? Or because there's not guns the chance of them getting shot is slim right? LOL

Visit the Basement

  

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Paul DFri May-19-06 03:06 AM
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#52. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to ablib (Reply # 51)


  

          



It has nothing to do with ignorance, and it is not, as you seem to imagine, a personal choice. It is policy throughout Britain.




Paul D

  

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MykFri May-19-06 04:44 AM
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#56. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Paul D (Reply # 52)


  

          

It sounds like a "good ol' days" policy to me.

Yes it is ignorance to think criminals with guns are not going to shoot cops. It is ignorance to think times are not changing.

It would not be ignorance if gun crimes were not increasing in the UK.

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MykFri May-19-06 04:43 AM
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#55. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to ablib (Reply # 51)


  

          

Quote:
The answer is yes, all cops in England will be faced with these situations too often to not carry a gun.

Once is too often, that's what too few people realize.

Quote:
I'm anti gun. Anti-gun for the citizen at least, I see no reason why private Americans need guns.

I forgot that ... you twisted ....

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MykFri May-19-06 04:40 AM
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#54. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 43)


  

          

We've been needing a gun topic for a long time.

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npmclFri May-19-06 10:09 AM
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#57. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 54)


  

          

Well we certainly needed something. However this thread is getting a bit tedious now as neither side will ever change the other.

  

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crazyXgermanThu May-18-06 03:25 PM
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#44. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 0)


  

          

the fact is that times are changing. criminals get bolder, smarter, more violent. this is a natural, unfortunate, though unavoidable evolution of society. this development cannot be undone, the clock cannot be turned back. therefore we have to adapt.

while in some countries such as the UK it may not have progressed quite as much as in others, the trend is there. some people try to blame it on video games, hollywood, the media, the government, whatever, but fail to recognize that it is a result of the whole. not one single thing can be blamed, banning guns or video games will not stop it, ignoring it and living oblivious to the change is not the right thing to do.

on one hand, we can all make a difference by following simple rules like 'treat others the way you would like to be treated.' every time you make a choice in life (which is countless times a day), do the right/honorable/positive thing. if we all kept this in mind as we go through our day, things can be better.

on the other hand, there will always be criminals, violence, and situations where being nice or talking is not going to help. we have to be aware of this fact and live accordingly. this includes being alert, aware, and prepared.

what goes through the mind of a criminal is something a lot of people do not understand. the urge of a junkie to get money for the next fix, no matter how. the urge of a rapist to find release through his next victim, etc. they do not care about people being nice or rules such as the law. they will do anything to get what they need.

therefore it is everybody's responsibility to accept that there always will be criminals, to be aware that you are never completely safe even in your own car or your own home, and to be prepared to defend yourself should bad things ever happen.

one part of being prepared is being willing and able to defend your health and your life should it ever be threatened. a last resort tool to do so are guns. unfortunately guns have a bad rep mainly because of the media and some people who do stupid things with them.

however, they are tools, and when used responsibly by people who had some training, they are as safe as other tools such as cars, power tools, cutlery, electricity, etc.

many people get hurt or killed every day during the use of said other tools because the people operating them either did not have the proper training or chose to do stupid things with them.

this is important to remember: guns are tools and they have a purpose. every single day bad things happen to good people. every single day law abiding citizens use guns to protect themselves from those bad people. every single day law enforcement officers use guns to protect citizens from bad people.

if a person is the target of a home invasion or other form of attack that threatens his or his familiy's health or life, without the tools to protect himself he has to rely on the police to come and protect him. this will not happen at all if he never gets a chance to call them, or happen too late by the time they get there even if he gets the chance to call them. in those 5 minutes, a bad guy can do a lot of very bad things to you. relying on the police to protect you is a very foolish concept.

have you ever listened to a recording of a 911 call from a person being assaulted and in fear of her life because she is helpless and is begging for the police to come and save her? have you ever talked to a police dispatcher who had to take that call and listen to it helplessly? have you ever talked to a police officer who got that call and arrived at the scene only minutes later, just to find that he was too late? let me tell you, it is a very sobering and eye-opening experience, to say the least.

the majority of people live their life in ignorance and have no clue what goes on around them, in their very city, in their very neighborhood. they take their safety for granted and never imagine that something bad could happen to them. they have no awareness, no plan, no knowledge of what to do when their life is suddenly endangered by a junkie/robber/rapist/lunatic. they are victims by nature.

on the other hand, many people have the tools and the knowledge to protect themselves and their families should something like this ever happen. we all really, really hope it never does, but as the saying goes, prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

it is understandable that a number people are uncomfortable with guns. some of them choose to learn about them and how to use them correctly. others prefer not to use them at all.

this is every person's choice. and this is the important word: choice! if a person is scared of guns, never wants to touch them or see them - that is his right and his choice. nothing wrong with it. nobody will force him to learn about and use guns, or support some mandatory rule that forces him to.

on the other hand though, that person must accept and respect that others have equal rights and the same choice. i like guns, i use them frequently, i teach people how to use them responsibly, etc. - but i do not want somebody to tell me that i cannot have them because S/HE is afraid of them and does not want them. i want the ability as a law-abiding citizen to own guns, use them responsibly and lawfully, and have the ability to defend my family's life.

that is part of what not only the U.S. of A. but many other modern, free western countries are about - the freedom to choose.

i respect your choice - please respect mine.

  

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jazz4freeThu May-18-06 04:05 PM
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#45. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to crazyXgerman (Reply # 44)


  

          

Did I miss something?

Noreen's original post was about a poll taken among English and Welsh police officers in which a substantial majority voiced a preference for continuing their tradition of not carrying firearms.

How this translates into infringing on any U.S. citizen's right to go packing in his homeland escapes me.

  

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npmclThu May-18-06 08:44 PM
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#48. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 45)


  

          

Me too. Our citizens and our ordinary police officers are not armed, they have never been armed, they don't need to be armed and they don't want to be armed. What is so intriguing is why does this so annoy some people on this forum?

  

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ShellyFri May-19-06 12:11 AM
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#50. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 48)


  

          

There are a few people here with a gun fixation who can always be counted on to see their God in the Second Amendment.

My personal opinion is that the right to own firearms is an important right protected in our Constitution. It is a bulwark against anyone, foreign, or home grown, being able to take away our rights and freedoms. In a showdown we're our own last line of defense against a potential dictator, or a military coup. Historically, the first act of a tyrant is to suppress the private ownership of weapons.

I have personally never felt the need of a gun for my own protection, and I have only carried one in the military where I was required to, and I was very proficient when I had to use it. In school I was on a target shooting team and was in many competitions. And yes, I was a member of the NRA before the zealots took it over. I'm getting older now, and the day may come when I will no longer be confident in my ability to defend myself from an armed assailant without a weapon of my own, but that day is not yet here.

Shelly

  

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Bob HFri May-19-06 03:35 AM
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#53. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 50)


  

          

When it get's there, consider a short barreled 12 ga with an appropriate load shell. Mine's a double barreled job and it's handy at night. I really don't trust my handgun capabilities anymore.



  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 12:51 PM
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#60. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Bob H (Reply # 53)
Fri May-19-06 12:55 PM by jazz4free

  

          

As far as experience with firearms is concerned, would this count?

The summer I was twelve I ran around wearing a stupid cowboy hat and plinked cans with a blot-action .22 rifle my parents had finally relented to. On more than one occassion I was tempted to shoot a bird on the wire but managed to control my blood lust.

I then discovered girls and replaced my childhood phallus with a really useful phallus -- a guitar.

PS: I also lost the cowboy hat.

  

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MykFri May-19-06 02:34 PM
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#64. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 60)


  

          

Equating guns with your penis says more about you than it says about people who like guns.
Equating a 22 rimfire to it says a whole lot more.
I don't even want to get into you thinking about using your phallus on a cock bird rather than a pussy cat.

It's a lame attempt at shaming people to your side and has always been that way. You side really should come up with some better attacks.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 03:19 PM
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#69. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 64)


  

          

Hi, Myk,

Quote:
Equating guns with your penis says more about you than it says about people who like guns.


I was twelve at the time but, right, Myk... Good luck with that one. Of course, you guys don't love the smell and feel of freshly oiled gun metal. And, certainly, my little rim-fire .22 sure as hell would never measure up to a sawed-off double barreled 12 loaded with double-o buck. Especially at close quarters. Guns and guitars... Gimme a break.

Quote:
It's a lame attempt at shaming people to your side and has always been that way. You side really should come up with some better attacks.


I won't argue whether or not it was a lame attempt, that's up to the reader, but "shaming" people to the "side" of reason has always been considered a noble enterprise. After all, haven't the shamans been doing just that since we climbed down from the trees?

And, as far as better attacks...the body count kinda speaks for itself.

  

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MykFri May-19-06 04:30 PM
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#72. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 69)


  

          

Shaming is not a nobel method of conversion. Ask the victims of Inquisition.
Using reason to push your cause is.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 11:36 PM
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#86. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 72)


  

          

I believe I said it was "considered" to be a noble enterprise. And I am a font of reason.

Also, last I looked, folks who were subjected to the Inquisition are no longer available for questioning. I think that particular outfit declared moral bankruptcy and went out of business sometime around the beginning of the 19th century. Anyhow, don't you think those poor souls would have had enough of questions.

  

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MykSat May-20-06 04:42 AM
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#89. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 86)


  

          

NO, I demand answers and the right answers.

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History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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Kiwi2022Fri May-19-06 11:10 AM
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#58. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 50)


  

          

Quote:
>I'm getting older now, and the day may
>come when I will no longer be confident in my ability to
>defend myself from an armed assailant without a weapon of my
>own, but that day is not yet here.


Shelly, my question to you and please know I am not being sarcastic by any means but how does one defend them self from an armed assailant without a weapon of their own?

By asking this question doesn't mean that I support people being able to carry guns. I don't really know to this day how I feel on that issue. I am very undecided. My first reaction is I am against it and the only reason being is because my father committed suicide in 96 by killing himself with an old "german rifle"....*frowns* I so wish we lived in a world were there was no need for guns other then perhaps hunting. *sigh* But, as I say that I also have a 357 Magnum that I have in my own house and I would certainly use it if someone were to break into my home and was going to harm my son or I!

I know this was a bit OT but I am curious as how does anyone for that matter defend them self without a weapon from an armed assailant, including police officers in the UK?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



"A woman's heart is an ocean of secrets."
Rose Dawson; from the movie "Titanic"

  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 02:07 PM
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#63. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Kiwi2022 (Reply # 58)


  

          

Jan,

The probability your home will be invaded by someone who's primary purpose is to do harm is insignificant. If, unfortunately, someone does break in it is much more likely to be a greasy little burglar looking to steal your Panasonic to help support his habit. At the first sign somebody's home these rats scurry back to the gutter -- the last thing they want is to spend time in the lockup where they can't get to their dope. Professional burglars have been known to back up a moving van and clean you out while you're away visiting.

However, the probability your son will find the fully locked and loaded magnum you keep close to hand in the night stand drawer -- I'm assuming this is the circumstance because if the gun is not instantly ready and available for use it is useless, right? -- is high.

The consequences of this are well documented and too terrible to contemplate.

Yes, it is a dangerous world, but maybe we should make a small attempt at containing the paranoia and weigh options.

Guns can be a source of entertainment (I like Dirty Harry movies, too) but in real life, more often than not, they make for bad news, as, sadly, you know all too well.


  

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MykFri May-19-06 02:43 PM
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#66. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 63)


  

          

How would you know?
You're obviously against guns and your country doesn't have crime since you've banned guns, remember?

If someone breaks into your house while someone is home their intent is to hurt someone. It is that way almost 100% of the time. If someone commits a crime with a witness and don't conceal their identity they generally intend to kill.

Somehow I doubt she has a Desert Eagle in 357 to be "locked and loaded". Revolvers don't get into that state, genius.
If her son is so young he also doesn't have the strength to activate most revolvers. If he's not that young he can be taught to not touch mommy's pistol.

Quote:
Yes, it is a dangerous world, but maybe we should make a small attempt at containing the paranoia and weigh options.

Advice you should aim at yourself.

It's really out of line for you to play on a tragedy in someone's life to push your agenda.
You might want to check suicide rates for Japanese, who have gun bans.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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dbahnFri May-19-06 03:00 PM
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#68. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 66)


  

          

Quote:
If her son is so young he also doesn't have the strength to activate most revolvers. If he's not that young he can be taught to not touch mommy's pistol.


I didn't do this with my own kids growing up, but I think it might have made sense to have them witness, say, an "unexpected" shotgun blast to a nearby pumpkin, followed by a brief explanation that guns can go off unexpectedly and when they do, violent things can happen. I've got to believe that kids exposed to the reality of guns will make much more sensible decisions about using them as playthings and would be infinitely less likely to be hurt or to hurt someone else accidentally with them. Most children see guns on TV, where they are usually glamorized one way or the other, and the effects of them are never "real".

There's no question that the presence of a loaded gun for adult protection is a safety risk for children.

Dave



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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 04:10 PM
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#71. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to dbahn (Reply # 68)


  

          

I recall a segment on a TV show a short time back in which two boys, ages 5 or 6, were placed alone in a room with a moderator, and given a an extremely graphic lecture about the consequences of even touching a handgun. The person giving this stern advice then placed the handgun he was using as a prop on the table between the boys, excused himself and left the room.

He had not been absent one minute before one of these angelic kids had picked up the gun, pointed it at his companion and pulled the trigger while saying, "Bang, bang, you're dead."

Earlier in this thread, Shelly recounted an incident where four civilians pulled their pieces and banged away at a bad guy to prevent a robbery in a diner. And they were adults!

It's madness.

  

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MykFri May-19-06 04:34 PM
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#73. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 71)


  

          

I recall my real life segment where I was taught not to touch my parent's guns and I didn't.
Perhaps this is a parenting problem and not a gun problem.

Quote:
Earlier in this thread, Shelly recounted an incident where four civilians pulled their pieces and banged away at a bad guy to prevent a robbery in a diner. And they were adults!

It's madness.

The madness is you thinking the bad guy should be the one allowed to kill innocent people.

--------------
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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 06:28 PM
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#80. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 73)


  

          

Quote:
The madness is you thinking the bad guy should be the one allowed to kill innocent people.


Geez, I almost missed this one. As usual, you're wearing me out, Myk.

I can picture it. The bad guy walked in, waved his illegally obtained gun and said, "Gimme the money."

And while the cashier was frantically doing his or her best to turn over the 200-or-so bucks in the drawer (probably for the third time that month) four bright citizens decided to pull their legally-obtained pieces and start a barrage of gunfire that could have killed the cashier and several innocent bystanders. It's a wonder these mental giants didn't wipe out one another in the crossfire.

This is the type of incident you would expect Ned Buntline to have written about happening in 19th century Dodge City, not 21st century Florida. Maybe that's why, way back then, Wyatt Earp posted his "No Guns Beyond This Line." Even way back then, in that rawboned part of America, peace officers recognized there had to be some sort of control over firearms or you had chaos.

  

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crazyXgermanSat May-20-06 03:03 AM
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#87. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 80)


  

          

>And while the cashier was frantically doing his or her best to
>turn over the 200-or-so bucks in the drawer (probably for the
>third time that month) four bright citizens decided to pull
>their legally-obtained pieces and start a barrage of gunfire
>that could have killed the cashier and several innocent
>bystanders.

==> but in reality it didn't.

> It's a wonder these mental giants

==> why are you insulting them?

> didn't wipe out one another in the crossfire.

==> the fact is, they didn't.

you are making stuff up that did not happen. you have no leg to stand on.

but ok, we are willing to play that game, too. let's fantasize about what probably would have happened if there were no armed citizens:

the crack addict psychopath robber could have killed the cashier and possibly innocent bystanders in the process of successfully robbing the store.

however, in reality, that didn't happen. the good guys lived, the bad guy didn't. that is the fact. that is the best case scenario.

what possible argument could anybody have against this outcome?

  

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jazz4freeSat May-20-06 08:13 AM
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#93. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to crazyXgerman (Reply # 87)


  

          

I'll admit, you paint a rosy picture -- all future spontaneous firefights in busy public places should go so well. Everyone lives happily ever after, and Wayne LaPierre has another anecdote to exploit on the Sunday morning talk shows. No losers but the bad guy -- great stuff!

Keep it coming, guys, I'm starting to see the light.

  

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MykSat May-20-06 04:50 AM
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#90. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 80)


  

          

How about a story that wasn't made up.

My friend who was due to graduate college in a week was working at the laundry getting ready to close up.
A person who was supposed to be a local friend walked in with a new friend of his. This new friend had just got out of prison.
They wanted the money from the bill changer. That's the only money there unless they wanted a hundred pounds of quarters from the machines. What do you guess is in a bill changer, $200?

Being the peaceful hippy my friend gave them what they wanted. Then they took him into the back room and shot him dead.

That is the real life story of what an armed robber that doesn't try to hide their identity does.

Now let's play your active imagination game.
The robbers come in, my friend goes to the drawer to get the key but pulls out a gun instead. One less robber.

And sorry to step out of the imaginary story for a while, that one less robber also means one at least one female was not raped because that's how they ended up catching the guy.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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jazz4freeSat May-20-06 08:15 AM
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#94. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 90)


  

          

There are eight million stories in tne naked city...

  

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MykSat May-20-06 06:31 PM
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#100. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 94)


  

          

Maybe 30,000 stories, it was a small town.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 03:46 PM
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#70. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 66)


  

          

Quote:
If someone breaks into your house while someone is home their intent is to hurt someone. It is that way almost 100% of the time. If someone commits a crime with a witness and don't conceal their identity they generally intend to kill.


Hurt, okay. They'll hurt you by illegally "converting" your property. The rest is apochryphal nonsense.

And I admit I can't distinguish a 357 from a howitzer. But I do know that if you load 'em at one end and flick the switch or whatever, really bad news comes out the other.

As for the remainder of your rant, if Jan thinks I was out of line I'll apologise -- to her.

You hug guns, Myk, I'll hug the ladies -- if they'll let me.

Besides, Noreen's right -- this is becoming tedious. We're both preaching to the choir and I got lots of pussyfied laundry to do.

  

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MykFri May-19-06 04:39 PM
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#74. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 70)


  

          

Quote:
Hurt, okay. They'll hurt you by illegally "converting" your property. The rest is apochryphal nonsense.

The nonsense is you ignoring the facts and twisting the meanings of words.
"Hurt" as in grave bodily injury. What I said is a fact. People don't do home invasion unless they're intention is to hurt someone not to rob them. That is why the punishment for home invasion is more severe.

I've shot thousands of rounds. Not on person was injured from them. So much for your really bad news.

At 60+ years I'm thinking your lady hugging has seen better days. Maybe you should go back to playing with your 22.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 05:08 PM
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#77. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 74)


  

          

Only got a few minutes -- my stuff is in the dryer.

Quote:
I've shot thousands of rounds. Not on person was injured from them. So much for your really bad news.


Tough luck... Maybe, the next thousand-or-so-times, while wasting more perfectly good lead that in my opinion could be better used for making fishing sinkers, you'll bag a couple.

Quote:
At 60+ years I'm thinking your lady hugging has seen better days. Maybe you should go back to playing with your 22.


Sadly, it has seen better days, Myk. But the trick is to find a lady who wants a hug and then play with the old .22.

Gotta run...

  

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nightlyreaderFri May-19-06 05:31 PM
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#79. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 77)


          

>Only got a few minutes -- my stuff is in the dryer.
>
>

Quote:
I've shot thousands of rounds. Not on person was
>injured from them. So much for your really bad
>news.

>
Quote:
Tough luck... Maybe, the next thousand-or-so-times, while wasting more perfectly good lead that in my opinion could be
better used for making fishing sinkers, you'll bag a couple.


Fishing sinkers? You mean the kind that holds a bait hook at the right level as to entice a LIVE fish to chomp down? Hmm, fish are usually eaten cooked. Won't cooking kill the fish? Oh, maybe not.

Nightly Reader

  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 06:34 PM
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#81. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to nightlyreader (Reply # 79)


  

          

That's just plain silly. You win.

  

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dbahnFri May-19-06 06:51 PM
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#82. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 81)


  

          

Actually, I thought lead was no longer used for fishing sinkers because of, well, the lead.

(Maybe I'm thinking of something else, like buckshot, but it seems that something that is made of lead turned out to be bad for fish or ducks or some creature that ingested it.)

Dave



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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 07:06 PM
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#83. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to dbahn (Reply # 82)


  

          

Quote:
Actually, I thought lead was no longer used for fishing sinkers because of, well, the lead.


Your probably right, Dave. I'm a dedicated "indoors" man.

Lead is known to be bad for all carbon-based life forms, most especially when it's inserted manually by means of gunshot.

  

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Kiwi2022Fri May-19-06 04:54 PM
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#76. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 63)


  

          

Quote:
>Jan,

>However, the probability your son will find the fully locked
>and loaded magnum you keep close to hand in the night stand
>drawer -- I'm assuming this is the circumstance because if the
>gun is not instantly ready and available for use it is
>useless, right? -- is high.
>
>The consequences of this are well documented and too terrible
>to contemplate.
>
>Yes, it is a dangerous world, but maybe we should make a small
>attempt at containing the paranoia and weigh options.
>
>Guns can be a source of entertainment (I like Dirty Harry
>movies, too) but in real life, more often than not, they make
>for bad news, as, sadly, you know all too well.


Hi James,

First of all let me just say and I probably should have mentioned this in my original post but I did forget. My son is 18 and very mature for his age. He is the only one besides me that lives in this house. I do not have any grandchildren or small children for that matter that even come around. Please know too that I have talked and talked with him about the safety and responsibilities of having this gun in the house. Believe me I am probably more cautious then most because yes, sadly I do know all too well what can happen.

I also am not really paranoid honestly because I live in one of St. Louis area's finest neighborhoods. I'm not bragging by all means and when I say that, it doesn't mean that something terrible couldn't happen here. That is exactly why I have the gun, because I know about the "dangerous world" we live in and that it can happen anywhere!

I have recently gotten a divorce and so I have this gun just in case I have to ever protect my son and/or myself. Even though I must admit the gun was here before I was on my own it's just now I would have to be the one to use it if need be. I hope and pray it never comes to that but I do know this much if I was confronted in my own home by an intruder and they were going to harm my son or I you can bet all the money ya got that I will use it!

I'll probably be like Les and sleep through it.

No need for an apology. *smiles*

James I do know that by the time I was to call 911 for protection against an intruder and wait for their arrival I could be sorry!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Les, I am so glad you are safe and nothing serious happened that evening as it sure as well could have.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And Shelly thank you for answering my question. It was sincere and I was just curious how someone can protect their self against someone that is armed. It must take a special person to handle them self as you must have and I know I certainly am not that person. I need a little help.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



"A woman's heart is an ocean of secrets."
Rose Dawson; from the movie "Titanic"

  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 05:19 PM
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#78. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Kiwi2022 (Reply # 76)


  

          

Quote:
I hope and pray it never comes to that but I do know this much if I was confronted in my own home by an intruder and they were going to harm my son or I you can bet all the money ya got that I will use it!


And, in that circumstance, may God guide your aim.

And perhaps Myk is right to hold my feet (foot, in my case) to the fire -- I was generalizing to make a point in a situation personal to you. That was wrong of me and I do apologize.

  

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GroganFri May-19-06 09:18 PM
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#84. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 63)


  

          

I sure hope you never experience a "home invasion", which is getting more and more popular. No, they are not going to skulk away because you shout at them. You don't even have to have a rich looking house for it to happen. It's easier here, because citizens are not allowed to use firearms for self defence even if they have them. I personally know people who have been nearly beaten to death in home invasions, and know of people who have been beaten and stabbed all the way to death. Shootings during home invasions are not uncommon in the news, either. Insurance companies are even starting to offer specific home invasion provisions in their policies.

You are more than welcome to put your head between your legs and kiss your own ass goodbye, but you should not feel superior in any way to those with the freedom (and good sense) to be more proactive in controlling their fates.

Grogan

  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 11:01 PM
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#85. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 84)


  

          

Reviewing my post, I said the probability of a home being invaded by someone proposing harm as their sole objective was insignificant. On reflection, perhaps my choice of the word "insignificant" was poorly considered. Certainly, to those who have suffered the insane violence of the young sociopaths who perpetrate these "thrill" crimes the number itself would be insignificant -- the one they experienced would be plenty and enough.

But, unlike your experience, I can count on the fingers of one hand these past couple of years the number of violent "home invasions" that have been reported by the media that cover the metropolitan and suburban Montreal areas, while common break ins in these same areas (population 3.5 million) for the purpose of theft have to number in the tens of thousands. And, no, I don't have precise figures -- I'm using what little common sense God gave me. For every sick Charles Manson wannabe out there there must be at least thousands of cracked out petty thieves with their eyes on people's TVs and laptops.

I hope I am looking down on no one -- as you described, with my head between my legs and kissing my ass goodbye, it would present me with a unique point of view, to say the least. I'd have to be perched upside down and sitting ass backward on a ladder.

I respect your obvious intelligence, Grogan -- but if you think the suppression of these home invasion crimes, which I consider to be a sick fad among a sub-culture of crazies, will be achieved by "pro actively" arming every household with the deadly force of firearms...

Bottom line: It's my personal belief that keeping a firearm, especially a short gun, in a household where there are children, presents a much greater threat to the peace and security of that family than does the obscure chance that same firearm will prevent tragedy.



  

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crazyXgermanSat May-20-06 03:12 AM
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#88. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 85)


  

          

>...the number of violent "home invasions" that have been reported by the media...

you just disqualified your own statement. just because it was not reported by the media it did not happen???

>Bottom line: It's my personal belief that keeping a firearm,
>especially a short gun, in a household where there are
>children, presents a much greater threat to the peace and
>security of that family than does the obscure chance that same
>firearm will prevent tragedy.

wrong again. the number of firearm accidents are a minuscule fraction compared to the number of times firearms are used by private citizens to defend their life and health every day - on the other hand, the number of automobile accidents that cost innocent lives is a lot bigger than the number of firearm accidents in the household. we should start by banning cars first

  

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jazz4freeSat May-20-06 08:52 AM
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#97. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to crazyXgerman (Reply # 88)


  

          

Quote:
wrong again. the number of firearm accidents are a minuscule fraction compared to the number of times firearms are used by private citizens to defend their life and health every day


NRA b.s.

Quote:
the number of automobile accidents that cost innocent lives is a lot bigger than the number of firearm accidents in the household. we should start by banning cars first


Huh?

  

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MykSat May-20-06 05:13 AM
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#92. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 85)


  

          

Here, search "home" and leave the state blank. You'll turn up 1836 records.
These are only records where the citizen was armed, only ones that made it to the newspapers and only the ones that were sent in. There are a lot more that aren't armed and don't fare so well.

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

At least here it's not as uncommon as you want to believe.
Besides, it only takes one to happen to you or yours for you to think it happens too much.

Actually arming every household would almost stop home invasions instantly. You don't invade a home for a thill crime if you know the person inside is armed.
This is the reason why violent crimes drop when a state gets concealed carry. The criminals don't know who will shoot back.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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jazz4freeSat May-20-06 08:34 AM
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#95. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 92)


  

          

You may have something there, Myk. Following that logic we could obviate the need for guns entirely -- since the bad guys are not into playing Russian roulette, simply passing a concealed carry law and posting a notice on the front door of every home ("We got guns and know how to use 'em!) should do the trick. And it would be much more cost effective than actually arming every household.

But then we wouldn't have the actual gun to fondle, would we?

Humm...a fly in the ointment.

On second thought, you're right -- much better to arm every household. Who gets the contract -- Colt, Remington?

  

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ShellyFri May-19-06 02:35 PM
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#65. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Kiwi2022 (Reply # 58)


  

          

Training and attitude. My training was very good, my attitude is my own. Most people with a gun believe they are invincible, they are not. I have had four people try to kill me in my life. two were on the same day. Three had a gun, one a knife. They died of overconfidence.

I know I am not as fast, or as strong as I was back then. But I have never feared for my safety, or doubted my ability to handle any situation I found myself in. My advantage is that the other guy doesn't know that.

Shelly

  

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MykFri May-19-06 02:50 PM
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#67. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 65)


  

          

What I have witnessed is older men with or without a gun have that feeling of overconfidence and invincibility and put themselves into situations where they soon discover they're not as young as they used to be.
Bad time to make that discovery.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 04:51 PM
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#75. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Myk (Reply # 67)


  

          

Truer words never spoken.

In my mind, I'm still twenty-years-old, and, like Bruce Willis, I can take that approaching gang of rowdy teenage punks who are hogging the sidewalk and, as they come, brushing aside little old ladies with walkers, like dead leaves, into the gutter.

In reality, my creaky old arthritic body limps aside to join them.

But, if I had a pistol...

  

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MykSat May-20-06 04:55 AM
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#91. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 75)


  

          

In my aging mind fighting hurts (sitting down or standing up hurts for that matter). I gave up Karate and spent the yearly lesson costs on a gun

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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jazz4freeFri May-19-06 12:03 PM
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#59. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 50)


  

          

I've gone sixty-one years without a gun being stuck in my highly-valued kisser.

But if lightning does strike, guess I'll just hand over my wallet and pee my pants. Sure as hell, I'll not be doddering around for a GLOCK.

  

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LesFri May-19-06 01:22 PM
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#61. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 50)


  

          

A couple of months ago the "unthinkable" happened to me. My house was broken into while I was asleep. When I got up in the morning and was looking around to see what had been taken I noticed 2 hammers lieing on the floor. One was a large rubber "mallet" and the other a large steel claw hammer. They had been picked up in the garage and obviously brought into the house for only one reason. Had I awoken and caught the thieves they would have attacked me to be sure I could not identify them. Unarmed, I likely would have been killed or at best seriously injured. I keep a loaded .380 semi auto next to my bed, which in this case is a moot point since I slept through the break in, but had I been awakened and able to confront the intruders I at least would have had a defense against a certain, probably fatal, attack.

I had just recently retired and moved into my new home and had not updated security. Now, if intruders are somehow able to gain entrance, they will truly wish they had picked on an "unarmed" household.



Les

  

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dbahnFri May-19-06 01:40 PM
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#62. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to Les (Reply # 61)


  

          

A variation of that experience happened to me 25 years ago. I was awakened by my barking dog, whose barking had obviously driven an intruder back out the basement window that he had broken in through. I was upstairs with my wife and 2 young children. The thought occurred to me that the worst outcome of that would have been to hear a gunshot downstairs and then have the dog stop barking. Then I'd upstairs, unarmed, with a killer in the house (well, at least a dog killer, but that's a start). After that I bought a shotgun to go with the dog.

Dave



Dell 8300 Dimension
Pentium 4
W XP Home


www.woodenpropeller.com

  

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nightlyreaderThu May-18-06 05:00 PM
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#46. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to crazyXgerman (Reply # 44)


          

Great post! Thanks for taking the time to share those thoughts

Nightly Reader

  

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EdGreeneSat May-20-06 08:39 AM
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#96. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to nightlyreader (Reply # 46)
Sat May-20-06 08:39 AM by EdGreene

          

92% 0f GUN VIOLENCE (in America) IS DOMESTIC VIOLENCE

Note: Cumulative homicide/suicide figures for the past 30 years shows that more than 1,200,000 persons died from murders or suicides in the nation, more than all the fatalities in all the wars the country ever fought, 500,000 since the Vietnam War. As national statistics show that violent crime has actually decreased in recent years from an average of 32.6 per hundred thousand in 1972
to 32.1 in 1993, some areas of the nation have shown a marked increase in media coverage of violent crimeMc.

In 1990, 92% of every 100 firearms homicides were domestic homicides (41%) or suicides (51%). The so-called "law-abiding" citizen, the least notorious but in truth most prolific villain in the nation's domestic firearms violence, should rightfully be the person(s) indicted by the gun lobby for their unrivaled part in the staggering rise in firearms trauma and the subsequent costs incurred by America's criminal justice and health systems as a result of domestic firearms violence. The gun lobby fails to address or refute facts showing that in any given year, most gun deaths (92%) are in truth caused by domestic violence committed by ordinary people in fits of rage or depression.
The gun lobby discounts all assertions that domestic violence, specifically domestic gun violence, is a major and precipitant contributing factor in the generic "violence" costing the American taxpayer so dearly: Since 1985, all classifications of violence cost America $180 Billion directly. There was an additional $10 Billion expended in crime related costs, the criminal justice
system spent another $85 Billion and Americans spent more than $265 Million with private protection and security industries. America itself suffered losses of more than $100 Billion to the national infrastructure from urban decay, lowered property values and other costs absorbed by American business and industry. The total cost of violence, including domestic gun violence to America-has been $440 Billion since 1985. When one adds to the cost to the health and administration of justice systems plus the costs of illegal drugs, alcohol, guns and white collar crime to the total, the cost in dollars to America since 1985 has been $800 Billion (Eight-tenths of a Trillion dollars).

EXHIBIT "A"
THE COST OF FIREARMS TRAUMA TO THE NATIONAL HEALTH SYSTEM
* The Centers For Disease Control (CDC) estimate the lifetime costs-of firearms violence including hospitalization, rehabilitation and lost wages was $14.4 Billion in 1985 (more than $20 Billion in 1992), making it the third most expensive injury category after Automobiles and workplace injuries.
· Each firearms trauma involving emergency room treatment costs $13,600
· * Each firearms injury involving hospitalization costs at least $33,159, whether the victim lives or dies.
(Add $18,000 if the patient is an infant in pediatric intensive care.)
* The average lifetime cost to the American taxpayer for each debilitating firearms injury-$373,520, is the highest of any injury category. Of the 56,000 or more persons who suffer non-lethal firearms injuries each year, more than 33,000 are the poor or uninsured and their treatment and/or recovery will be paid for by American taxpayers2).
2)The hospital rates for all patients (131) admitted to San Francisco general hospital because of firearms injuries were studied to determine the hospital costs and sources of payments for these injuries.
Because San Francisco General Hospital is the regional trauma center, the sample is population based, representing all firearms victims hospitalized in San Francisco during 1984.
Only hospital costs (excluding professional fees) for the first (not
subsequent) hospitalization(s) were studied. The total hospital costs for the year were $905,809, an average cost (minus Professional fees) per patient of $6915. Public sources paid 85.6% of this cost ($775,715) while private sources paid only 14.4% ($130,090). These findings have important implications for
legislators considering bills to restrict the availability of firearms. These legislators must be aware that the issue is not simply one of individual rights, since taxpayers pay most of the costs (estimated to be more than $1 billion per year for the United States) associated with firearms injuries.
source: The Journal of the American Medical Association Nov. 25, 1988-Vol 260
No. 20

EXHIBIT "B"

DOMESTIC GUN VIOLENCE STATISTICS
It should be noted here that there were more than 26,000 homicides and 31,000 suicides in 1990. Almost without exception, the non-firearms murders (just as the majority of firearms deaths) were caused as a result of domestic violence.

* 37,198 persons lost their lives to firearms in 1990, 34,462 (92%) of them killed in domestic violence or self murder (suicides)
* Fewer than 1% of the victims were criminal assailants killed by civilians in self defense.
* Fewer than 1% were killed by law enforcement officers.
* Fewer than 4% were firearms accident victims
* Fewer than 4% died at the hands of "real" criminals.
* 41%, or 15,377 of the 37,198 deaths were "criminal' (domestic violence) homicides, 12,489 by handgun
* 51%, or 18,885 of the 37,198 deaths were "criminal" suicides, 13,030 by handgun.
* Most (92 of every 100) persons killed by firearms were not strangers to their murderers or killed themselves.
* Of the 41 of 100 firearms homicide victims in 1990, the common thread in each? The murderers in most of the 41 homicides were not violent street "criminals" but the spouses, children-cousins-in laws, friends-next door neighbors or co-workers of the victims.


  

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jazz4freeSat May-20-06 08:54 AM
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#98. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 96)


  

          

Thanks, Ed.

I'm off to bed.

  

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npmclSat May-20-06 11:28 AM
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#99. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 96)
Sat May-20-06 11:39 AM by npmcl

  

          

UK statistics
Note.....Guns were involved in 8.5% of homicides, 3% of serious violent crime, 0.5% of less violent crime and 4% of robberies. Also that the statistics include guns that were not fired.

Quote:
Gun Crime Statistics
The following statistics are taken from the report on Crime in England and Wales 2004-05

In 2004/05 there were a provisional 10,979 firearm offences, an increase of 6% since 2003/04. The number of offences has risen each year since 1997/98

Firearms were involved in 1,206 more serious incidents of violence against the person (other than homicide) in 2004/05, the same proportion (3%) as in 2003/04. Less than half of one per cent (0.5%) of other offences of violence against the person involved firearms in 2004/05, though the 4,568 offences recorded represents a 31% increase from 2003/04.

Firearms were used in 73 (8.5%) homicides in 2004/05, five more than the previous year.

There were 2,659 firearm robberies in 2004/05 (4% of all robbery offences), a 9% decrease from the previous year.

Handguns, including imitation handguns, were used in 4,326 offences during 2004/05, a decrease of 16% from 2003/04. Shotguns were used in 590 offences, an 18% decrease from the previous year.

There were 412 firearm offences that resulted in serious injury in 2004/057, a 6% decrease compared to 2003/04. The number of slight injuries increased by 81% to 3,361 offences; it seems likely that changes to the categories used in classifying these offences have partly contributed to this increase. More than half of these slight injuries (55%) were caused by imitation weapons.

Imitation weapons were used in 3,332 offences in 2004/05, an increase of 55% (1,186 offences) from the previous year. Ball-bearing guns accounted for a large majority of these.
Firearms are taken to be involved in an incident if they are fired, used as a blunt instrument against a person, or used in a threat.

http://www.connected.gov.uk/facts/guncrime/index.html

  

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MykSat May-20-06 07:20 PM
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#102. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 99)


  

          

Do you know if you guys fixed your reporting methods?
It used to be that if a family of 12 was murdered it would get written down as 1 crime of murder.

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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MykSat May-20-06 07:13 PM
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#101. "RE: 77% of police officers do not want to carry firearms (UK)"
In response to EdGreene (Reply # 96)
Sat May-20-06 07:15 PM by Myk

  

          

Interesting.
I search assorted quotes out of that and I can't find any of it.
I can't even get "26,000 homicides and 31,000 suicides" to come up. Although "26,000 homicides" seems to be a popular number to get thrown around, Columbia has that many, that many are viewed by kids on TV before they graduate high school, that many are used in anti-abortion rants.
Also interesting is that the "31,000 suicides" is pretty consistent no matter what year is being claimed, even in Europe.

Since you didn't copy and paste off the internet, did you type that from a book? What book?
Even if it's out of a book it's amazing that no website has quoted from it.
I want to know the source.

I find the opening statement very telling. "Note: Cumulative homicide/suicide figures for the past 30 years shows that more than 1,200,000 persons died from murders or suicides in the nation, more than all the fatalities in all the wars the country ever fought, 500,000 since the Vietnam War"
Cumulative, as in all, not just those related to guns. The US hasn't declared war since WWII.

Why say, "In 1990, 92% of every 100 firearms homicides"? If it's 92% of EVERY 100, isn't that 92%?
"self murder", There is no such thing. Obviously written by someone with an agenda, not unbiased reporting of facts.

"(92%) of them killed in domestic violence or self murder"
VS
"Most (92 of every 100) persons killed by firearms were not strangers to their murderers or killed themselves."
If you have the statistics for 92% wouldn't you also have the actual statistic instead of using the word "most"?

Things just aren't adding up here. What's the source? If that was put together from your own research then I completely understand.

You can cry all you want to but I have my loaded Glock less than a foot from my hand. I have a constitutional amendment enumerating that right. I don't see where it says anything about "unless some statistics, real or made up, make Ed Greene cry".

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

  

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