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spy1Wed Apr-04-07 06:23 PM
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"Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"


          

http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=6307530&nav=menu78_9_1_7

"On Monday, the man Virginia Beach police charged in a fatal accident over the weekend made his first appearance in court. He used an interpreter since he speaks little English. There may be even more problems for Ramos. He told the judge he was in this country illegally.

The accident happened late Friday night at the intersection of Virginia Beach Boulevard and Kings Grant Road. Police say 22-year-old Alfredo Ramos slammed into the back of the car with two Virginia Beach girls inside. Both girls were killed.

The crash took the life of 17-year-old Allison Kunhardt of First Colonial High School and 16-year-old Tessa Tranchant of Kellam High School.

Ramos is in the Virginia Beach jail without bond and charged with two counts aggravated mansalughter as a result of driving under the influence. Alfredo Ramos told a judge this morning he is in this country illegally."

"When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

  

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ablibWed Apr-04-07 06:25 PM
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#1. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 0)


  

          

If you're an illegal do you have to abide by our laws? Can they charge him? It would seem all he would get is deported. Got off easy.

Visit the Basement

  

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Bob HWed Apr-04-07 07:11 PM
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#2. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 1)


  

          

Naw, if he's convicted he'll serve his time and then get deported. Sounds like it should be good for twenty years.



  

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BobGuyWed Apr-04-07 07:34 PM
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#3. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 1)


          

That's the best part of being a illegal alien in this country. You can kill or murder any US citizen you want to almost with impunity.

The mexican govt will come to his aide if the US govt doesn't. And the mexican govt will protest his arrest and his innocence. If he is convicted he will probably do 3 months in an air conditioned jail this summer then released for Octoberfest.

Now if one of his illegal buddy's had got him back to mexico before he was arrested then he could just give the US govt the mother feckin finger and their would be nothing we could really do about it. Same shit different day.

Obviously the US govt cares more for the health and well being of mexicans then it does for it's own citizens, otherwise we would not have thousands of mexicans crossing our border illegally every day.

You should see the look on the women's faces here when they spot a mexican pissing on the sidewalk, or on the side of a building down town. Pure mexican class.

  

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jazz4freeWed Apr-04-07 08:06 PM
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#4. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 3)


  

          

Excuse my intrusion. This illegal alien stuff really is none of my business, but I lifted this from an article entitled, "Alcohol Related Car Accidents" by someone named Eric Morris:

Quote:
In the last ten years, around 250,000 people died in alcohol related car accidents in the United States. Figures show that 16,000 people were killed in the year 2000 due to alcohol related accidents. In 2004, that figure climbed to 25,000. This means that 500 people die every week and 71 people die everyday in alcohol related car accidents.


Makes you wonder how many of those accidents were and are caused by wetbacks and if the victims are any less dead when they're not. Just a thought...

  

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giseudaWed Apr-04-07 08:31 PM
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#5. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 4)


  

          

Quote:
wetbacks

Nice choice of words

  

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jazz4freeWed Apr-04-07 08:45 PM
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#6. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 5)


  

          

Yeah, sorry... Greaser would have been a better choice.

Y'know, I've already done the word "obtuse" to death -- and besides, I thought we'd be better off discussing stereotyping, xenophobia, bigotry and racism in another thread. It certainly has no place here.

  

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jbmcmillanWed Apr-04-07 10:49 PM
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#7. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 0)


          

I fail to see the point of posting this as if illegal aliens are the only ones getting drunk and driving and killing someone.Really the lowest form of argument to support your view on illegals.Do they keep statistics on illegal versus legal drunks??

  

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ShellyWed Apr-04-07 11:50 PM
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#8. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jbmcmillan (Reply # 7)


  

          

Well It is certainly reassuring to learn that traffic deaths due to drinking are caused by illegal aliens,and not red blooded Americans!

This thread is one of those disgusting bigoted diatribes that sometimes make me wonder if this forum was a good idea after all.

Shelly

  

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peterbThu Apr-05-07 02:36 AM
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#11. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 8)
Thu Apr-05-07 04:56 AM by peterb

          

Shelly:

I totally agree with your concerns regarding this forum. It seems that PCQandA has inadvertently sacrificed many valuable members to accomodate the O/T Lounge. Maybe the "Acceptable User Policy" needs to be redefined to save this oasis from extinction.

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 11:40 AM
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#15. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to peterb (Reply # 11)
Thu Apr-05-07 11:53 AM by jazz4free

  

          

I respectfully disagree, Peter. There are plenty of places on the net these roaches can go where they feed on each other's venom and thrive and multiply in the dark. When they come here, and to places like this, we at least have an opportunity to switch the light and experience the small satisfaction of watching them scurry back under the toilet bowl.

This thread was started with a post designed to incite and encourage the mindless banality we witness in the 3rd response. In the 1st response we experience the slack-jawed youthful naivety that they hope is open to recruitment, and in the 2nd a casual indifference to its actual intent.

It's a microcosm of the world we live in. As unpleasant as it sometimes is, are we not better served to recognize and confront this decadent bullshit on our own ground?

History teaches we ignore hate mongering at our own peril.


  

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Bob HThu Apr-05-07 04:37 PM
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#25. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 15)
Thu Apr-05-07 04:41 PM by Bob H

  

          

Thanks for the kind words, James. If you disagree with the scenario I proposed, come out with your reasons. There have been multiple instances in the news that proceeded exactly as I described. If my casual slip into non- elegant words upset you, tough.



  

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JohnnyRebThu Apr-05-07 04:49 PM
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#27. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Bob H (Reply # 25)


  

          

I think you were the "casual indifference" not the "mindless banality"

  

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npmclThu Apr-05-07 07:02 AM
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#13. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 8)


  

          

Quote:
This thread is one of those disgusting bigoted diatribes that sometimes make me wonder if this forum was a good idea after all.
Then why do you and your fellow moderators allow it?

  

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ShellyThu Apr-05-07 02:10 PM
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#18. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 13)


  

          

Because there is much good and intelligent thought posed here. It would be a pity to loose a rational congress of ideas, because a handful of fools occasionally choose to mentally defecate here. Free speech can not thrive in a regime of censorship.

Shelly

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 12:18 AM
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#9. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 0)


  

          

I've been reading back through some of your more recent posts, Steve Yevchak, and my curiosity compels me to ask, "Are you in the Klan?"

  

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giseudaThu Apr-05-07 12:59 AM
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#10. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 9)


  

          

What mental facility are you posting from?

  

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JohnnyRebThu Apr-05-07 04:45 AM
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#12. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 9)
Thu Apr-05-07 05:18 AM by JohnnyReb

  

          

The original post and some (one) of the responses posted sadden me.

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 08:02 AM
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#14. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 12)


  

          

I've often tried to understand what motivates such thinking. It's the same thinking that dehumanized black Africans so they could be used as chattel and later drove the obscene trains to Auschwitz. It is painful to attempt to dissect the pathology because, sometimes in a moment of weakness, when for one reason or another we feel aggrieved, a kernel of similar thought enters all our minds.

My nearest conclusion is that it is a poisonous combination of ignorance and cowardice. And of those we are never in short supply.

And to answer guiseda's insightful remark -- at times like this I feel I'm posting from Bedlam.

  

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giseudaThu Apr-05-07 02:08 PM
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#17. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 14)


  

          

Quote:
I've often tried to understand what motivates such thinking.

I can tell you what motivates such thinking. It's called a "legal process."

My wife is from Brazil. We went and are still going thru it after almost 10 years. She wants U.S. citizenship. All the documentation, fingerprints and money make it a long demanding process.

Why should the border jumpers be allowed to stay and go to the front of the line?

  

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BobGuySat Apr-07-07 04:56 AM
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#69. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 17)


          

Quote:
Why should the border jumpers be allowed to stay and go to the front of the line?


Stop asking the tough questions.

I have no idea, but I'll bet Geraldo Rivera can answer that question for you.

Did anyone see Bill O'Reily and Geraldo Rivera have at it on this very subject Thursday night on Fox noise?

I thought that Geraldo was going to whip out his 44 automag and blow a hole in Bills head, right between the eyes, on TV.

  

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JohnnyRebThu Apr-05-07 12:03 PM
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#16. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 9)


  

          

He is most probably John Birch. Fiercely libertarian and anti-government yet strangely conservative. Fits the profile of the JBS perfectly... The link he posted recently regarding banking was all but taken out of the pages of New American.

And you are right in your previous post, James. We need to take this fight. When I first saw this thread I didn't know whether to curse or cry. It is a sad indictment of the state of humanity that people can post this tripe without feeling shame. Blatent racism, posted to incite more racism.

So Pete, I am sure you are sitting back feeling pretty smug right now. Just know that there is a special place in hell reserved for people like you.

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 04:41 PM
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#26. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 16)


  

          

Well, JR -- and here I was thinking the John Birch Society, who's principles (which, as an unrepentant hippie) I sorta grasped, and often argued against in the 60's, 70's and 80's, was an anachronism that died with the Cold War and was buried with the revered bones of Ronald Reagan.

But I just now Googled their website and it seems they are still going strong. Perhaps only peripherally, but I live and learn...

Anyhow, you describe Spy 1 as being, "Fiercely libertarian and anti-government yet strangely conservative." I agree, but would replace the "strangely conservative" part with "conveniently fascist." Obviously in him we witness a confusion of purpose, but perhaps it is one, to a certain extent, we all share.

I don't know if you catch Lou Dobb's CNN show in your part of the world, but here is another otherwise inarguably intelligent and articulate man who seems undone when it comes to the issues of illegal immigration and a global economy.

Perhaps I'm naive, but as far as I'm concerned, the sooner we all emigrate, immigrate, infiltrate, associate and assimilate into one huge brownish-hued human package never-again in need of a suntan parlor; while still remembering, respecting but not revering beyond reason our individual cultural and religious heritage, the better. We've been wandering all over this globe for a quarter-of-a-million-years, each of us in search of a peaceful home, and we remain divided principally by inherited prejudice and the quest to power of the inadequate. Our art and literature reflect our lust for comity, our religion and historically recently-found nationalism our need for dominance.

At the moment, obviously, we are doing a rotten job. The air about us is filled with hatred, invective and bullets. And the fires of mutual destruction are stoked on all sides by those who subscribe to the machines of war and the suppression of a differing spirit in the name of preservation of what remains to most chimera.

I propose many, many questions and few if any answers, but, addressing this particular thread, I think one who risks all, indeed his/her very mortality, to find a better place in this world for himself/herself and those he/she cares for is, in my mind, not committing sin but is evincing virtue. He/she may break a law de jure, but it was he/she and his/her like who summoned the courage to lead us the way from the Rift Valley to populate the globe.

And in America the Old-German-based English language will adapt and adopt and flourish, not at all threatened in its long established utility and vitality in literature, the street and commerce, and even bolstered by the new influx of Spanish as it was since and before, in England, when Harold lost the Battle of Hastings to a French William in 1066.

But, then again, we have to face the fact that there are among us some who are just plain lazy, bone-deep stupid and comfortably convinced of their own infallible mission. And – this I haven't figured out yet – they somehow rise to the top of the puddle in the pot hole of history.

There must be some sort of physics involved. As with most things, Shelly might better explain it.








  

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nightlyreaderThu Apr-05-07 02:26 PM
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#19. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 0)


          

Still trying to find the racism and hate in your post. It must be there somewhere, as others have found it.

Nightly Reader

  

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npmclThu Apr-05-07 03:52 PM
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#20. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to nightlyreader (Reply # 19)


  

          

As regards the racism (and implied hatred) you're not seriously suggesting that he would have posted that item if the driver had been an American are you?

  

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ablibThu Apr-05-07 04:20 PM
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#22. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 20)


  

          

I too fail to see the racism in this thread. The only racism I found was when James called the Hispanic a "wetback" and a "greaser" which is the same thing as calling a black person a nigger.


I don't know Spy's intention as posting this link as some of you who know him better than I do may know that his intention could of been to imply that it's only those dirty illegals that cause such accidents. Which is crap, because I'm sure that us dumb Americans cause the majority of alcohol related crashes.


What I get from this thread is that Spy is just posting the news and informing us of the illegal immigrant problem that we have in America. Is spy1 just as wrong as the thousands of media outlets who are reporting this! I think the ones here who find that Spy1 is the racist in this thread and not James are just looking for racism.

The real meaning of this thread should be why is Alfredo Ramos in this country? Along with millions of other illegals. Here is Alfredo's record:

Quote:
According to court records, Alfredo has a criminal history, all misdemeanors. In October 2006, Ramos was charged with drunk in public. In November 2007, he was charged with driving without a license, identity theft, no seat belt, and no insurance. In January 2007, he was charged with pubic swearing and intoxication.


The real problem here (and it's not RACISM!) is why was he still allowed in the country after all those legal altercations before he killed those 2 girls.


I think the ones spouting racism in this thread are blind to the real problem at stake, it's illegal immigration. And James' racist comments.

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclThu Apr-05-07 04:34 PM
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#24. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 22)


  

          

Have you ever heard of irony?

  

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spy1Thu Apr-05-07 05:08 PM
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#28. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 24)
Thu Apr-05-07 05:12 PM by spy1

          

Have you ever heard of this site: http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html ?

Read this release: http://www.house.gov/apps/list/hearing/ia05_king/col_20060505_bite.html by Rep. Steve King of Iowa?

  

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npmclThu Apr-05-07 08:21 PM
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#51. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 28)


  

          

What have they got to do with irony?

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 06:17 PM
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#36. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 22)


  

          

Cool your jets, Junior.

Others may still hold out hope for you, but, with each word typed you prove yourself to be foolish and unreceptive.

Without doubt, even at your tender age, you have mastered the art of sarcasm -- in your case it may perhaps be congenitally inspired, who knows or cares -- but obviously irony soars far above your infantile head.

For your benefit only, I'll deign to profess that I am not racist. I'm about as far from being racist as a white boy from Quebec can get. In the 50's, my little home town of Valleyfield is a place where the genius Oscar Petersen worked his mixed-race trio, with Ray Brown on bass and Herb Ellis on guitar because niggers and whites were not permitted to live in the same hotel south of the border. Montreal is the place where Jackie Robinson was cheered instead of jeered when he played his first pro ball for the Brooklyn Dodger's organization, and where, as a musician, I shared a working lifetime of bed and board and confidence and companionship with tons of niggers and spicks -- but not too many greasers only because they were entertaining with their Tex-Mex music down south of the Mason Dixon line and didn't much get up our way.

Do you wonder where I learned all these despicable references to persons? That, by-the-way was a rhetorical question, just in case you mistook it for the usual hypothetical question you excuse your conduct with.

You're a man-child who knows little of the world. Listen and observe and speak only when you feel you have something worth saying.







  

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ablibThu Apr-05-07 06:26 PM
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#39. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 36)
Thu Apr-05-07 06:28 PM by ablib

  

          

There you go with the personal attacks again. I'm telling you, they don't support an opinion.

I don't care what people think about me, but I can hardly take what you say with any face value with all the negative diatribe that you include with your sometimes informative posts.

Visit the Basement

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 08:41 PM
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#54. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 39)


  

          

Frankly, my dear, I no longer give a shit.

Good luck.

  

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Ed W.Thu Apr-05-07 08:59 PM
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#56. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 54)


          

Another intelligent post James.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 09:41 PM
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#61. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 56)


  

          

Thank you. But, which one? There are so many I've lost track.

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 09:37 PM
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#60. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 39)


  

          

Of course you care about what others think of you. I was there just where you are and when I had a major pimple on my face I squeezed it and hoped the swelling would go down before I had to do kissie face with my girlfriend, she who drank screwdrivers that cost seventy-cents while the beer I drank was only thirty-five cents. I never forgave her for that -- but the sex was kinda worth it.

Now, that is what you may use as an example of drunken babble.

If I ever do anything like that again, I'm fair game. Otherwise...

In the meantime, I reserve the right to refer to you as Junior.

  

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giseudaThu Apr-05-07 06:32 PM
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#40. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 36)


  

          

Quote:
For your benefit only, I'll deign to profess that I am not racist. I'm about as far from being racist as a white boy from Quebec can get. In the 50's, my little home town of Valleyfield is a place where the genius Oscar Petersen worked his mixed-race trio, with Ray Brown on bass and Herb Ellis on guitar because niggers and whites were not permitted to live in the same hotel south of the border. Montreal is the place where Jackie Robinson was cheered instead of jeered when he played his first pro ball for the Brooklyn Dodger's organization, and where, as a musician, I shared a working lifetime of bed and board and confidence and companionship with tons of niggers and spicks -- but not too many greasers only because they were entertaining with their Tex-Mex music down south of the Mason Dixon line and didn't much get up our way.


You obviously have a high command of the English language. What's with all the foul/racist words in this paragraph?

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 09:45 PM
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#62. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 40)


  

          

It's my day off.

  

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spy1Thu Apr-05-07 04:19 PM
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#21. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to nightlyreader (Reply # 19)


          

Yeah - me, too. A simple news report from an American paper and people here can't get on the "hate pete' bandwagon quick enough.

I posted part of the article and purposely included no comment of my own.

So far, this thread is "one of those disgusting bigoted diatribes" - inhabited by "these roaches" where "a handful of fools occasionally choose to mentally defecate here".

I'm accused of being a "klansman" and/or a member of the J.B.S (and all of this, mind you, by people claiming some sort of illusory moral high-ground over me! <g> ) - neither of which is true, of course.

Yes, this thread speaks absolute volumes about some of the people posting in it.

Notice how no one dared to touch giseuda's post?

"Why should the border jumpers be allowed to stay and go to the front of the line?"

They never have an answer for the hard questions. Just venom.

I believe I'll survive, though.

In fact, I know I will. Pete

  

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JohnnyRebThu Apr-05-07 04:33 PM
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#23. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 21)


  

          

From the acceptable use policy:

Quote:
Do not post anything inflammatory with the intention of provoking arguments and antagonizing other posters.


Yes Pete, we saw through your cute little plot. See my post about you feeling smug.

Your post was inflammatory and had not-so-subtle racist undertones.

You are a worm. Please crawl back under your rock.

  

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giseudaThu Apr-05-07 05:13 PM
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#29. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 23)


  

          

Quote:
Do not post anything inflammatory with the intention of provoking arguments and antagonizing other posters.


Why would you think you're innocent of the same thing?

  

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JohnnyRebThu Apr-05-07 05:21 PM
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#30. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 29)


  

          

I'll tell you what - you find a post where I post something inflammatory which is not in direct response to somebody else's post and I will publically apologize for all the terrible thoughts I have about your character and intellect.

Just one.

Start looking - I am pretty sure you won't find one. THIS thread, on the other hand, qualifies for that award straight out of the box.

  

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ablibThu Apr-05-07 05:28 PM
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#31. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 30)
Thu Apr-05-07 08:43 PM by ablib

  

          

again I do not think this is one of those threads. This thread should be about the problem of illegal immigration.


it's unfortunate how people are pulling a jesse jackson on this and making it a racist thing.

Visit the Basement

  

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LilJoeThu Apr-05-07 05:32 PM
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#32. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 31)


  

          

I think everyone on this forum is full of CRAP, except me, and I have my doubts about me

LilJoe

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 09:12 PM
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#58. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to LilJoe (Reply # 32)


  

          

Never doubt yourself, LilJoe. You're right, we're all full of it.


  

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JohnnyRebThu Apr-05-07 06:00 PM
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#33. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 31)


  

          

I do not see how this thread is about anything else than Pete trying to paint undocumented migrants as bogeymen because of an automobile accident.

Put it this way - say I start a thread with a news report that says nothing more than a white woman was gunned down on the streets by a black man.

The implicit in a thread like that would be that black men are violent, and something should be done about them.

Pete knows full well that he posted this to incite.

  

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ablibThu Apr-05-07 06:24 PM
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#38. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 33)


  

          

The next time I post a link, I better think long and hard about whether or not someone will think I'm a racist. Even if the story doesn't have anything to do with racism.

Visit the Basement

  

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JohnnyRebThu Apr-05-07 06:38 PM
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#43. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 38)


  

          

It is not the STORY that is racist. The story is simple fact.

Think about this one for a while. If you want to post about the problem with undocumented migrants, WHY post about an automobile accident? There are plenty of more pertinient issues to post about.

  

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ablibThu Apr-05-07 06:42 PM
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#45. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 43)


  

          

Alredo's record is the problem. HOW can he have that many altercations with the law and still be allowed to kill those girls?

Visit the Basement

  

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GroganThu Apr-05-07 06:05 PM
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#34. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 23)
Thu Apr-05-07 06:09 PM by Grogan

  

          

Some of you need a healthy dose of reality here and never mind the Utopian ideals... this is 21st Century Earth.

The bottom line is, this man had no business being in the country and killed two kids through drunken negligence. Was he even fit to drive in the first place? Is it not prudent that this issue gets some media attention? I do not think it is unreasonable to present this as an argument against illegal immigration.

It's not that illegal immigrants are responsible for the drinking and driving fatalities, it's that this one was. It certainly would not have occurred if he wasn't in the country.

We've discussed prejudice before. In a way, what I am about to say is a bit prejudiced (if you look up the word, it doesn't necessarily mean "KKK" style) it simply means to make judgements ahead of time, not necessarily knowing facts or specifics. Illegal immigrants just might be more inclined to commit crimes. It's wrong to brand them all criminals and they certainly should not be treated as such, even though someone who might break the law to be in a country illegally might be inclined to commit other crimes as well. But it's certainly something to be wary about, is an important point in the debate about illegal immigration and is part of the reason that controls need to be in place and in force.

I'd very much like to unassumingly welcome everyone with open arms, but that would be foolish. At the same time, I don't begrudge anyone seeking a better life and I am certain that many of them are good people. The problem with illegal entry is that there is no control whatsoever. It's like after something bad happens, their illegal presence is discovered and dealt with.

Grogan

  

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JohnnyRebThu Apr-05-07 06:16 PM
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#35. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 34)


  

          

Actually, almost all research into undocumented migrants shows that they are much LESS Likely to commit crimes than individuals in a country legally. The reason most often cited is that the risks of deportation are deemed more costly to them than the risks of incarceration are to legal residents.

To say that this incident is can be used as an argument against undocumented workers is ridiculous. There is no need for an argument against undocumented workers. There is legislation against them. This is just a way to stir up emotions. Sad, pathetic, and racist.

  

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ablibThu Apr-05-07 06:20 PM
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#37. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 35)


  

          

Quote:
Sad, pathetic, and racist


Only if that's how you want to perceive things. Like I said, I don't know Spy1 that well, but I see it as a post about the illegal immigrant problem in the US. Which is a problem the US is ignoring.

Visit the Basement

  

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JohnnyRebThu Apr-05-07 06:36 PM
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#41. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 37)


  

          

The post is not about an immigrant problem. It is about an automobile accident. The only thing the two have in common is that the driver was in the country without papers.

If the driver had been a tourist from Australia would you say it was about a tourism problem?

  

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GroganThu Apr-05-07 06:41 PM
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#44. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 41)


  

          

>If the driver had been a tourist from Australia would you say
>it was about a tourism problem?

Bad analogies don't surprise me either.

No, the tourist from Australia has gone through due process on both ends and is in the country legitimately. If he commits a crime or negligently harms someone, that can't really be helped.

The situation in this thread can be helped, possibly just by waking up and enforcing existing laws.

Grogan

  

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giseudaThu Apr-05-07 06:57 PM
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#47. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 44)


  

          

Quote:
No, the tourist from Australia has gone through due process on both ends and is in the country legitimately.


Yep. With a stamped passport and an International Drivers License.

  

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ablibThu Apr-05-07 06:47 PM
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#46. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 41)


  

          

Quote:
The post is not about an immigrant problem


The fact that this illegal is still in the country after having so many run in's with the law is not a problem?! The fact that because our government turns a blind eye to the illegal immigrant problem these 2 girls are dead is not a problem! Did you read Spy's link? Usually you are one of the most informed and well spoken posters here.

Read the important part (again) here:


"According to court records, Alfredo has a criminal history, all misdemeanors. In October 2006, Ramos was charged with drunk in public. In November 2007, he was charged with driving without a license, identity theft, no seat belt, and no insurance. In January 2007, he was charged with pubic swearing and intoxication"

Visit the Basement

  

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GroganThu Apr-05-07 06:36 PM
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#42. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 35)


  

          

No, to brand the post as racist is ridiculous. You speak of legislation... is it racist to want to see that enforced? You've ignored the main points of what I said too, which doesn't surprise me a bit.

He was not supposed to be in the country, let alone drive there with or without alcohol. Even if he managed to get a drivers license through legal means, it should not have been given.

If he wasn't in the country it would not have occurred.

The issue of illegal immigration needs to be addressed, and this incident is an example of why.

Grogan

  

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JohnnyRebThu Apr-05-07 07:07 PM
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#48. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 42)


  

          

Grogan, you are a fool if you think this incident is a reason why undocumented migrants need to be addressed.

I do not disagree that the issue needs some solution. This particular incident has no bearing on that.

I hereby quit this topic. It is too infected.

  

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GroganThu Apr-05-07 07:11 PM
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#49. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 48)
Thu Apr-05-07 07:32 PM by Grogan

  

          

>Grogan, you are a fool if you think this incident is a reason
>why undocumented migrants need to be addressed.

I'm a fool? That's pretty funny, considering that you are just blinding yourself to the facts that make this story relevant to the problem of illegal entry. He fell through the cracks. If I had those kinds of charges I would not be allowed back into the country either, even to visit (note that a "misdemeanor" means something different in the US... it just means it's not a felony conviction)

Very well, you've run out of valid arguments so you've resorted to name calling and now you say you're done with the discussion. The hallmark of a loser. Screw off then.

Grogan

  

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pakoThu Apr-05-07 08:57 PM
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#55. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 48)


          

Quote:
I hereby quit this topic. It is too infected.


The way I see it is you hereby got your ass kicked and can't take the heat.


  

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81 NewbeeFri Apr-06-07 04:10 AM
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#63. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 35)


  

          

MY WORD !!.If I were a Mexican in some backwater town with little or no chance of improving my or my familys lot.I would be somewhere in the USA now!
Using the word Undocumented is no way to describe what I would be.I would be Illegal(Stop the PC crap).I would first of all be upset with my homelands leaders for its corruption and pissing the oil money away and not using the labor available to build up a Mexican economy,I would be surprised and pleased by how easy it is to get into the US and grateful for all the cities and organizations that help hide me and provide ,help,schooling ,health care, foodstamps ,legal advice,and flea markets where I can buy identification cards .I would be wary of those selling me "valid" social security cards but if I could not afford a car I certainly would buy a drivers license!(almost anyone accepts them as valid IDs
I would wonder why those who apply through legal channels are upset with me(Many are !)I would work hard at tough jobs and know that the way things are going with Bush and the democratic party as well ,I have a shot at amnesty and at worst a green card.Why they even are talking about my collecting social security payments.WOW
That said I don't resent those here but am perplexed in light of the terror problems we have today that my Government is so damn lax in protecting our borders.I am concerned that so many million are here ..I am a fan of Mexican food and am served by many of these people and most are hardworking and honest(I suspect some were those who tore off my old roof),but we only hear about the bad guys.We should be on Mexicos case to help fix the problem since our countrys effort to improve the economy on the border has failed.All I ask of them is to become Mexican Americans instead of American Mexicans and learn some English.(They are here to stay !!!!!)

81 Newbee

  

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jazz4freeFri Apr-06-07 04:24 AM
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#64. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 63)


  

          

What old roof?

  

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81 NewbeeSat Apr-07-07 03:06 AM
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#67. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 64)


  

          

Hi James,My wood shake roof began to leak and so we had to replace it.The guys who tore off the old one ,and worked for the contractor, went shirtless (Warm Summer Day)and rolled up the shingles by prying and rolling them up with a shovel and then boosting the the rolls unto their shoulders and carrying to the edge of the roof. Then they tossed them down into a truck.Because of the nails and wood splinters,their shoulders were all bloody by the end of the day.When I went out to ask if they would like some cold bottled water only two of the five spoke English.I learned over the two days that they were here, that they worked for the same roofing company for more than a year.They would not tell me how much an hour they got .Whatever it was ,they damn sure earned it !!Wife made sure the had dessert when they stopped for lunch.And for all concerned,they were sober both days

81 Newbee

  

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spy1Sat Apr-07-07 04:00 AM
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#68. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 67)


          

And who, pray tell, will wind up paying for your workers' hospital bills (through higher insurance premiums) if (God forbid) their bloody shoulders become infected - or even worse - if they fall off your roof?

Hope you got a great price - and great job holding them in a lower wage-earning bracket and cutting out more highly-paid (read American) workers from doing the work.

Only an idiot wouldn't be able to see how (after that perfect example you just gave) wages across-the-board are going to suffer if the amnesty bill gets passed. Pete

"When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

  

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81 NewbeeSat Apr-07-07 05:05 AM
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#70. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 68)


  

          

My friend,I am one who checks the contractors that I do business with.The roofer had a correct license,insurance and a clear record with the BBB.
As a matter of fact,I am aware of the problems that our unprotected borders cause and have written to my Senators about it.Ms Fienstein is polite and Ms Boxer is, well, Ms Boxer .I do not pretend to be able to solve all the problems with our leaders and am happy that you are always there to fill the void in my efforts.Since I do not have the stamina ,I try to concemtrate on those that have an immediate effect on me.I also take little crap from anyone !!
If I took the stands that you take,my life would be spent contacting Federal officials .I have given up on these particular problems and am concentrating on the idiots who run the city I reside in.If I put as much effort as you do ,I would have to give up my Thursday golf.At my age that looms large in my scheme of life
I learned early in life to fight the battles that I am equiped to handle and feel that I have won more than my share of contests.This attitude made my life a bit more difficult and on occasion irked my bosses but served me well in my working days.(As I said before I take little crap from anyone)
Before this "Illegal" problem grew to its current size I was one who was asking for tighter border control to no avail.I am sure that you are bright enough to see that the Democratic party was hoping to gain voters and the Republicans were hoping to get a piece of the action.Now the labor unions see an opportunity to eventually organize these folks.(Someone has to pay for the organizers Lexuss, oops, I mean Cadillacs)I don't need a lecture from you to teach me the ways of the world but I do have a suggestion for you.Stop spreading you self so thin. Concentrate on the most important item(In YOUR estimation and beat it to death or life as you see fit.You are a bright guy but should have learned by now that even GOD (pick one of your choice)can solve all the problems of the world or stay even with the new ones our politicions create.Good luck on you crusades.I am switching over to get my starting time for next Thursday.That I can handle,Regards ,

81 Newbee

  

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spy1Sat Apr-07-07 02:18 PM
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#72. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 70)
Sat Apr-07-07 02:19 PM by spy1

          

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-crash7apr07,0,7158364.story?coll=la-home-local

"Driver accused in crash that killed director pleads not guilty
The man at the wheel of an SUV that killed Bob Clark and his son had a blood-alcohol level three times the legal limit, police say.

Hector Velazquez-Nava, the driver accused of causing the crash that killed movie director Bob Clark and his son, pleaded not guilty today to a pair of counts of gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated.

He remains in custody at Van Nuys Jail with bail set at $200,000, said Jane Robison, a spokeswoman for the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office.

Velazquez-Nava, 24, had a blood alcohol level three times the legal limit when the crash occurred early Wednesday on Pacific Coast Highway, police said. He is a native of Mexico who federal authorities said was in the U.S. illegally.

The crash killed Clark, the director of "A Christmas Story" and the "Porky's" movies, and his son Ariel, 22."

  

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ablibSat Apr-07-07 05:14 PM
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#75. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 72)


  

          

This isn't a problem about illegal immigration! You're nothing but a racist!

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spy1Sat Apr-07-07 05:37 PM
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#77. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 75)


          

Not really sure how you arrived at that astoundingly brain-dead, totally-wrong conclusion but I can assure you that "racism" doesn't enter into any of my decisions.

I am totally against any and all illegal immigration - by whatever group.

Our country simply can't stand it anymore.

All our major "safety net" institutions are being totally over-whelmed by it - health-care, social services, education, law-enforcement, the penal system.

The crimes that do get prosecuted are filling our jails - the crimes that do not get addressed committed by illegal aliens allows them to roam our streets with impunity.

If you're getting the impression that I'm "racist" because of the sources I'm quoting, you're wrong - the simple fact of the matter is that mainstream media won't deal openly with the problem.

But you're quite entitled to your opinion, of course. Pete

  

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ablibSat Apr-07-07 06:21 PM
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#79. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 77)


  

          

It was sarcasm aimed toward the inane theories brought out in this thread.

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spy1Sat Apr-07-07 07:14 PM
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#80. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 79)


          

Thank you - sarcasm I can relate to. Pete

  

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KJTSat Apr-07-07 06:13 AM
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#71. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 68)


  

          

at you, not with you.

Some people in this state used to make the virtually identical scare-tactic argument concerning the influx of out-of-state workers, some of whom were willing to work for reduced wages. Fear mongers spread the word: "Hillbilly" migration, if it was allowed to continue, was going to result in real Ohioans losing their jobs or having to work for lower wages. The end of the life as we knew it was at hand.

Well, the influx was unstoppable. In the end there were probably more of them ("Hillbillies") in many Ohio Counties than there were "real Ohioans".

Did wages drop? Did "real" Ohioans" lose their jobs? Of course not. The economy prospered. Good wages were earned. The standard of living improved for almost everyone. The "Hillbillies" became Ohioans. Nowadays it's terribly hard to tell the real Ohioans from the Hillbillies. (Hint: Hillbillies may be the Ohioans who despite having lived in Ohio for 30, 40, or 50 years, still go home to "God's Country" every chance they get.)

There's little chance of ever rolling back the cross-border influx - those individuals who are here already aren't likely to leave. H.R. 1645 attempts to deal with this issue in a sane and comprehensive manner. A very tiny part of it is all you've expressed disagreement with and yet you say " you're totally OPPOSED". Re-read H.R. 1645 and it's likely there will be quite a bit you're not opposed to, but keep in mind it's a RESOLUTION.

You used to post of the loss of personal, civil, and privacy rights. In the end that loss is going to have a far greater impact on all our lives than immigration. You're virtually wasting your time and energy if you think you can have any impact on the outcome - except perhaps a negative outcome due to the tone and direction of your argument.

Devote your time and energy to defending our personal, civil, and privacy rights. You'll find a lot more support, and you're chances of at least a degree of success will be greatly improved.

Jim.

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 08:21 PM
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#50. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 34)
Thu Apr-05-07 08:29 PM by jazz4free

  

          

Quote:
I do not think it is unreasonable to present this as an argument against illegal immigration.


Mike, in general you're thoughts on illegal immigration are more than reasonable. But, in this context they are also moot, because here, within the confines of this thread I think we who express our disapproval speak to the motivation of Spy.

As example, would he have bothered to present a similar report had it involved you or I as the offending driver?

Also I disagree with your premise that it is not unreasonable to present this as an argument against illegal immigration. The argument against illegal immigration is that illegal immigration is itself illegal on its face. It needs no further justification or embellishment.

So why then post an example that reeks of racism?

  

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giseudaThu Apr-05-07 08:31 PM
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#52. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 50)


  

          

It reeks of illegality not racism James.

  

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ablibThu Apr-05-07 08:36 PM
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#53. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 50)


  

          

This is a good story though to bring the topic of illegals to the masses.

I guess it's all in how you look at it. The majority of this thread seems to think it's about racism. Others see it as another DUI fatality.

I see it for clearly what it is. A prime example of how illegal immigration is a problem in America and how we're doing little to stop it. The fact that he has the record that he has and no public official cared to do anything about IMO puts those public officials partly responsible for the deaths of those 2 girls.

I don't know Spy1 that well, but knowing him, he was posting about the illegal immigration problem in america and not racism.

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jazz4freeFri Apr-06-07 04:36 AM
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#65. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 53)


  

          

Are you talking to me?

  

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ablibFri Apr-06-07 07:08 AM
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#66. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 65)


  

          

Quote:
Are you talking to me?


Yes I was answering this question, even though it was directed at Grogan:

Quote:
So why then post an example that reeks of racism?



And how it was reasonable to use this as a prime example for an argument of illegal immigration.

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GroganThu Apr-05-07 09:04 PM
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#57. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 50)
Thu Apr-05-07 09:05 PM by Grogan

  

          

I speak to the motivation of spy1 also. I just do not think he's out of line. (this time )

Grogan

  

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jazz4freeThu Apr-05-07 09:16 PM
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#59. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 57)


  

          

Very well, as my English teacher used to say.

  

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ShellySat Apr-07-07 03:33 PM
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#73. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 57)


  

          

Mike, it does smell of racism. There is only one way to control illegal entry into the US from Mexico. All the idiots in the world screaming for building fences and arresting the aliens will never control the problem. Such an attempt would overwhelm the legal system and triple the population of our already overcrowded prisons.

The people who rant against the illegal immigrants do so because they are an easy and helpless target for the rabble rouser's. Hitler first took away all the legal rights of the Jews, then he railed against them to his people, then he murdered them. Each act he took made the next act possible. Slave traffickers denied the humanity and then the human rights of Blacks to justify selling them into slavery. Its an old story, its origins lost in the mists of human history.

The only way to have any real effect on the problem is to go after the people who employ illegal aliens. They are the reason these people cross our border for the better economic life denied them at home. Control the employment of illegals and the problem becomes manageable.

Of course, this tact would mean stepping on the toes of greedy but well connected and powerful people and companies, instead of just trampling on the helpless. Put a thousand of these business owners in prison for breaking our immigration laws and foreign workers will start being hired legally, instead of exploited.

All the rabble rouser's in the world like Lew Dobbs, and a few of our own forum crusaders, will never even begin to solve anything. Build a wall 1000 feet high and they will find a way to tunnel under it. Imprison them and a dozen new ones will replace each one incarcerated. When you have a problem you must attack the cause, not the result.

Shelly

  

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spy1Sat Apr-07-07 03:59 PM
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#74. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 73)


          

You know, truthfully - I don't really care about all the illegals already here (as long as anyone charged/convicted of a crime has their citizenship status checked and are booted out of the country after serving their jail-term).

What I do think is critical is exactly what you profess to think won't work - securing the borders to prevent MORE from flooding in - and they are:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,264764,00.html

"Police Find 80 Immigrants in Phoenix Home; 2 Suspected Smugglers Arrested

....

"Tellef said the drop house is the second the department has found this week. On Monday, he said 30 suspected illegal immigrants and four smugglers were found in a Peoria home.

On Thursday in Phoenix, police found 60 suspected illegal immigrants packed in a home after responding to a call about shots being fired. No one was hurt, and the immigrants were turned over to ICE."

You can't sit there with a straight face and tell me or anyone else this isn't an invasion Shelly - it is.

And the only possible hope of allowing our country to remain "sovereign" is to block those borders and cut the flood to a trickle - and it can be done (why on earth do you think the Mexican government is so against the wall proposal? Because the harder you make it to get in the less that get in!).

Sure - improved enforcement of existing laws against employers that hire illegals would help - but stopping the flood has got to be the first priority.

There's only a minimal chance that we can assimilate all those already here - not stopping the current and future hordes coming across the border erases even that miniscule hope.

And the mexican government isn't going to be part of the solution - you know as well as I do that that they're encouraging this.

So exactly which "root cause" of the problem of illegal immigration is the American public supposed to pay for next? Pete

*And, least you or anyone else think the illegal drunk killer problem is not very bad, check out this page:

http://www.thedustininmansociety.org/no_more_deaths/no_more_deaths.html



  

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Bob HSat Apr-07-07 09:18 PM
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#84. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 74)


  

          

Our liberal posters probably didn't get further than your reference to Fox News. According to them, nothing there is of any consequence and is the fantasies of neocons and the far right. A typical response of the brainwashed far left.



  

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GroganSat Apr-07-07 05:25 PM
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#76. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 73)


  

          

I can't stand Lou Dobbs. My Dad watches that (I'm a captive audience if I'm having dinner with them) and I swear, it's the same crap every night, like a broken record. The man needs to get over it. It's partially fueled by the letters he gets though, which shows that it's a bigger problem than just him.

I personally don't think they should be banished, I just think that the death of those two girls is an example of what can happen when there is no control.

The original post in this thread was fair game, though I don't agree with what followed. (I see that you may be right)

Foreign workers being hired legally is the answer. There is then a bit of a screening process. It may not always prevent things like this from happening, but at least it's something.

There's a farm here that sells fresh fruits and vegetables. It's a fair sized operation, and they make money hand over fist (the goods are quite pricey) during the growing seasons for their various produce from locals and tourists alike. The key is irrigation... they have huge fields with pumps and sprinklers which is why they have bountiful amounts of very nice stuff.

They import Mexican workers, because the locals that they could get to do that kind of work can't be relied on, damage the product and damage the crops. I don't blame them one bit for hiring foreign workers to do these jobs. Yes, there are people who complain about taking jobs away from locals (some of them use derogatory names for the workers too), but you don't see them lining up to do a better job.

The migrant workers are very well treated. They are in fact treated like friends, from what I know of it. I get sent there at times to buy stuff to take to my Sister's place and I see them. The workers are smiling and friendly, even though some of them don't speak much English. They must be happy, because I see some of the same faces every year. I make a point of giving them a friendly nod and a smile when I'm there. These are good, hard working people doing a job that I wouldn't do for any money.

Grogan

  

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spy1Sat Apr-07-07 06:19 PM
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#78. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 76)


          

Grogan - Have you read this one yet?

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20070405-123141-6880r.htm

"Low-skilled aliens exact a burden

Immigration reforms that increase the number of low-skilled workers entering the United States threaten to impose a high cost on taxpayers, says a study being released today.
The Heritage Foundation report calculates that for every $1 unskilled workers pay in taxes they receive about $3 in government benefits, including Medicaid, food stamps, public housing and other welfare programs."

....

"The report on low-skilled workers, who are defined as those without a high school diploma, did not focus on immigrants, but its authors say 25 percent of legal immigrants and 50 percent of illegal aliens fall into the category. About 9 percent of native-born Americans lack a high school diploma.
Using data from 2004, the report shows the average household headed by a low-skilled worker paid $9,689 in taxes but received $32,138 in benefits a year. The more than $22,000 difference is the "tax burden" which rises to $1.1 million over the worker's lifetime."

=============

It'll be interesting to see the full report and the re-action to it, because on the face of it, it's black-and-white verification of the fact that the nation will be headed for real bankruptcy - and a total break-down of services - sooner rather than later. Pete

  

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ShellySat Apr-07-07 08:03 PM
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#81. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 78)


  

          

So now you are against anyone in a low income job or without a high school diploma. They don't even have to be illegal aliens. They can be native born Americans that don't meet your standards for existing. At least you are a consistent bigot.

And you source to bolster your philosophy is the Washington Times, a paper wholly owned by the Korean Unification Church,and its leader the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, more commonly known as the "Moonies".

Take a good look at your hero:

http://www.iapprovethismessiah.com/

Shelly

  

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GroganSat Apr-07-07 08:41 PM
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#82. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 81)


  

          

LOL... I didn't know that. It's pretty scary. All I knew about the Washington Times is that it's one of those stupid newspapers who wants everyone to register at their web site so I often end up closing the browser window.

Grogan

  

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spy1Sat Apr-07-07 09:36 PM
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#86. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 81)


          

>So now you are against anyone in a low income job or without
>a high school diploma. They don't even have to be illegal
>aliens. They can be native born Americans that don't meet
>your standards for existing. At least you are a consistent
>bigot.
>
>And you source to bolster your philosophy is the Washington
>Times, a paper wholly owned by the Korean Unification
>Church,and its leader the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, more
>commonly known as the "Moonies".
>
>Take a good look at your hero:
>
>http://www.iapprovethismessiah.com/

Shelly - It's sad to note that you've become just like some others (giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't always that way).

Did I say - anywhere - that I was "against" anyone in a low-paying job? Of course not. What I did was quote a part of a very factual study done. The purpose being, of course, to note that fully 50% of all illegal aliens in this country fall into that category - with the results reported, earnings versus "pay-out-wise".

You further try to cloud the issue by bringing into the discussion (of all things) the ownership of the reporting media??? Are you stupid? The source is irrelevant to the content!

Or would you have everyone believe that the Heritage Foundation (who produced this report, in case you hadn't noticed) is owned by the 'moonies', too? I don't know why, but I really thought you were more intelligent that that (I'm re-thinking it now).

I also notice that you threw that in to a response I made to Grogan - while totally ignoring my response to your previous post (guess you couldn't come up with any snappy response for that, right?).

I brought that article to Grogan's attention to underline and undermine the false impression a lot of people seem to have about how illegal immigrants "contribute as much as they take" - they don't.

Please try to bear in mind that Bobh's last response is totally on-the-mark - in any discussions here or elsewhere, I am not referring to legal immigrants, or people with valid greencards or a valid "student" visa. Nor do I have a problem with visitors who drive our roads using an international driver's license.

This is ALL about illegal aliens - ALL ILLEGAL aliens, regardless of their country-of-origin.

Quit trying to make it about something it's not. Pete

"When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

  

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ShellySat Apr-07-07 11:33 PM
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#87. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 86)


  

          

Quote:
You further try to cloud the issue by bringing into the discussion (of all things) the ownership of the reporting media??? Are you stupid? The source is irrelevant to the content!


Further proof you are an ignoramus. Am I stupid? No you are. Ownership of the Washington Times has EVERYTHING to do with its content! It was purchased only to further the aims of Moon. It loses a hundred million dollars a year, and will never make a nickle. That is not its purpose.

Quote:
"I influenced America through the Washington Times and so many different activities," Sun Myung Moon


You obviously made no attempt to read a word at the link I posted about this dangerous lunatic.

Shelly

  

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spy1Sun Apr-08-07 12:20 AM
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#88. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 87)


          

Don't worry - I'll post back when (if) the mainstream media ever finds out about the study.

Of course, I'm sure you'll have something to say about the mainstream media, too.

None of which - still - has anything to do with the subject of the thread. Pete

"When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

  

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spy1Sun Apr-08-07 12:48 AM
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#89. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 88)
Sun Apr-08-07 12:52 AM by spy1

          

Actually, here's what I think is the whole report on the Heritage Foundation's website:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/sr12.cfm

Excerpt added: "Politically feasible changes in government policy will have little effect on the level of fiscal deficit generated by most low-skill households for decades. For example, to make the average low-skill household fiscally neutral (taxes paid equaling immediate benefits received plus interest on government debt), it would be necessary to eliminate Social Security, Medicare, all 60 means-tested aid programs and cut the cost of public education in half. It seems certain that, on average, low-skill households will generate deep fiscal deficits for the foreseeable future."

Great stuff, isn't it?

And I notice you still don't have anything to say about my remarks in the post I alluded to previously (of course not - why address anything pertinent when you can rant and rave about the Washington Times' ownership, instead?).

Truly pathetic on your part. Pete

"When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

  

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KJTSun Apr-08-07 03:27 AM
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#90. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 89)


  

          

at you.

You've lost any credibility you ever had. Maybe it's time for you to move on.

Jim.

  

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spy1Sun Apr-08-07 03:47 PM
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#91. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to KJT (Reply # 90)


          

My "credibility" doesn't depend on your perception of the "truth" of any given matter, thank God.

Your opinion is simply that - your opinion (and I give that the full benefit of whatever weight it actually deserves).

It's very hard to have any respect for an individual that boldly defies the truth that's looking them right in the face.

Un-controlled illegal immigration will destroy this country's sovereignty.

And you'll only have yourself to thank when it happens. Pete

"When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

  

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KJTSun Apr-08-07 10:21 PM
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#93. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 91)


  

          

Now you're spouting absolute nonsense:

Quote:
And you'll only have yourself to thank when it happens.


You, not I, advocated to everyone that:
Quote:
You REALLY need to get on your phones and FAX machines and let your REPRESENTATIVE know - TODAY - that you're totally OPPOSED to H.R. 1645


Instead of supporting a Resolution that, if enacted, might finally control immigration by instituting sane and equitable policies, you choose to lobby for its total defeat instead of attempting to remove a small section of the Resolution that you disagree with.

Failure of this Resolution to progress into law, with or without modifications, will be the cause of continued "Un-controlled illegal immigration". If your views play any part in its failure to become law, you will have only yourself to blame for any loss of "sovereignty".

Jim
.

  

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spy1Sun Apr-08-07 11:23 PM
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#94. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to KJT (Reply # 93)


          

Not if we make a serious, all-out effort to close the border, it won't.

Which is the only sane course of action to take, given the benefits to be derived from doing so (reduced drug traffic, seriously reduced illegal penetration and better security from actual terrorists - none of which you seem to care about).

If the illegals already within the country find out that they're not going to get a free ride - or further "re-inforcements" from the mothership - then they'll have no choice but to assimilate correctly (apply for greencards in-country, learn to speak and write the language fluently - in other words, follow all of the rules to become actual citizens of this country).

With all the benefits of citizenship with-held until they do so. Pete

"When fascism comes to America it will come wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

  

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giseudaMon Apr-09-07 11:15 PM
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#95. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 94)


  

          

The outrage continues to pour in. He killed 2 young girls. Nobody cares what his race is. The fact that he doesn't belong here is the point.

  

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KJTMon Apr-09-07 11:28 PM
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#96. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 95)


  

          

Quote:
The fact that he doesn't belong here is the point.


The fact that two young girls were killed by a drunk driver is the point.

Jim.

  

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giseudaMon Apr-09-07 11:36 PM
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#97. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to KJT (Reply # 96)


  

          

OK..Do you think he had a legal drivers license like the rest of us are required to have?

  

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KJTMon Apr-09-07 11:48 PM
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#99. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 97)


  

          

I don't know if he has a valid driver's license. He might have. Aliens, illegal and otherwise, have been known to have valid licenses.

But whether he had a license or not is totally irrelevant. Licensed or not, he was drunk and two people were killed as a result. That's the relevant point - a driver was drunk and people were killed as a result.

Jim.

  

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giseudaTue Apr-10-07 12:07 AM
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#101. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to KJT (Reply # 99)


  

          

The relevant point "in my opinion" is he should'nt have been here to start with. Let's deal with our own drunks first

  

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ablibMon Apr-09-07 11:38 PM
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#98. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to KJT (Reply # 96)


  

          

The fact that if he wasn't he to begin with those girls would be ALIVE is the point.


If people gave a damn about this problem the girls would be alive.


They possibly would of lived another 5 years before they would of got killed by a legal dumb american. Then it would of been good old fashiond drunk driving. That problem is never going away. Illegal immigration can.

Visit the Basement

  

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KJTMon Apr-09-07 11:57 PM
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#100. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to ablib (Reply # 98)


  

          

Quote:
They possibly would of lived another 5 years before they would of got killed by a legal dumb american. Then it would of been good old fashiond drunk driving. That problem is never going away. Illegal immigration can.


Aw come on. Don't embarrass yourself. You can posit a better argument than that in rebuttal. I have faith in you.

Jim.

  

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Ed W.Sun Apr-08-07 04:12 PM
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#92. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to KJT (Reply # 90)


          

How true those words are. He enjoys the same in all forums he posts to, anyone can copy and paste.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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GroganSat Apr-07-07 08:47 PM
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#83. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 78)


  

          

I read the article you provided. It sounds like it would be generally true. If you don't pay people enough to support themselves, then the burden falls on society to care for people and the wealthier pick up the tab. It may sound a bit socialist, but that's part of the role of society. The alternative is what... to make sure the Walmarts of the nation pay people a minimum wage they can live on and provide full benefits? Outsourcing doesn't help much either, which forces even more people into low paying, unskilled jobs.

I'd love to see these solutions, but you all want cheap goods and services.

Grogan

  

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Bob HSat Apr-07-07 09:21 PM
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#85. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 76)
Sat Apr-07-07 09:23 PM by Bob H

  

          

Mike, I get the impression from your post that they are there legally. If true, it's not what Pete is talking about.

ed: I re-read and you did state legally, so this post is moot.



  

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spy1Sun Apr-15-07 03:08 PM
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#102. "RE: Illegal immigrant Charged in Fatal Beach Crash"
In response to spy1 (Reply # 0)


          

Anyone watch America's Most Wanted last night?

Here was one of the segments:

http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=38919

Anyone know whether there's any validity to this report?

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50441

*BTW - I KNOW this report is valid:

http://www.house.gov/mccaul/pdf/Investigaions-Border-Report.pdf - you should read it so that you can truly get an idea of how horrendous things are at our southern border. Pete

  

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