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bobwSun Jul-15-07 02:53 AM
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"Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"


  

          

I am neither a proponent or opponent of President Bush ! However enough is enough,it was my hopes that the withdrawal would have already been completed,as I was hoping for no later than the 4th of July 2007. I conclude now that the man must be insane,what is it going to take to wake him up to reality ?

http://www.yahoo.com/s/623466

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ShellyWed Jul-11-07 01:14 AM
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#1. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 0)


  

          

Quote:
I conclude now that the man must be insane,what is it going to take to wake him up to reality ?


Perhaps having his veto overridden?

Shelly

  

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giseudaWed Jul-11-07 01:40 AM
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#2. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 1)


  

          

Quote:
Perhaps having his veto overridden?


It will be interesting to see if that happens. The support for this war is dying quickly especially when the Iraqi's are doing little to help themselves.

  

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ShellyWed Jul-11-07 02:04 AM
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#3. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 2)
Wed Jul-11-07 02:05 AM by Shelly

  

          

It's a long shot since it takes a 2/3 vote in each house to override. It comes down to how many Republicans decide whether to abandon him or go down with the ship. As we get closer to the election, the members up for reelection will get ever more nervous about losing their jobs, and run from Bush.

In any event, in September Bush will have to ask for additional billions of dollars to continue the war. That vote is only in the House of Representatives, and requires a simple majority. I believe he will not get the additional funding and will be forced to withdraw the troops.

If there is a shred of sanity left in the White House, they will prevent an abrupt withdrawal by agreeing to a phased withdrawal by a specific date, before the September budget request

Shelly

  

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BobGuyWed Jul-11-07 07:58 PM
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#49. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 2)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
especially when the Iraqi's are doing little to help themselves.


Don't you mean, Iraqi's are doing little to help the USA?

Why would anyone help crusaders oppress their family's, neighborhood's, or friends further? 30 pieces of silver perhaps?

Had we not invaded Iraq, Saddam would still be killing al-quadea terrorist on Iraq soil, instead of our solders. And the balance of power in the middle east would have remained like it was in the 1990's.

"Patriotism is the conviction that your country is superior to all others because you were born in it."

  

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ablibWed Jul-11-07 02:07 AM
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#4. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 0)


  

          

The reality is tough. When we bail, if the Iraqi government doesn't pull it together all hell will break loose. Hopefully that scenario won't happen. If it does, the Iraqi's will finally have to learn to take care of themselves.

If the veto doesn't get overridden it would be interesting to see how many more republican votes there were this time around than the last.

The elephant needs to wake up here if they even want a shot in '08.

Visit the Basement

  

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81 NewbeeWed Jul-11-07 05:11 AM
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#5. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 4)


  

          

Interesting!many of the anti war folks here in the SF Bay Area are protesting the democrats refusal to "cut off the funds" as weakness on their position on the war.They too say that it is a sure way to end the war NOW and Bush would be forced to bring home the troops.
Damned if they do,and damned if they don't.Politics is a difficult game,when your own family wants to "eat your children"!
Nancy is having trouble at home !


81 Newbee

  

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ShellyWed Jul-11-07 03:06 PM
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#37. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to 81 Newbee (Reply # 5)


  

          

The simple fact is that the Democrats have no ability to cut off funds to the war unless they can attain a veto proof majority in the House of Representatives. That day is not far off as the House Republicans will all have to face the voters in just under 16 months. Unless they are willing to go down in flames with their President, and see the most lopsided Democratic victory in modern times, if not ever.

Very soon the concept of self preservation will take hold, and the handful of Republican lawmakers abandoning Bush will become an avalanche. At that point Bush will have lost all political authority, other than his pardon power, and become a placeholder awaiting the new administration.

Shelly

  

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BobGuyWed Jul-11-07 08:11 AM
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#7. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 4)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
The reality is tough. When we bail, if the Iraqi government doesn't pull it together all hell will break loose. Hopefully that scenario won't happen. If it does, the Iraqi's will finally have to learn to take care of themselves.


Why exactly would all hell break loose?
And for how long would this be for?

Iraq is probably the worlds oldest civilization, or is it the cradle of civilization? Anyways Iraqi's have been taking care of themselves long before george bush took his first baby liqui-shit in his mothers arms. And I suspect they will still take care of themselves long after the failed U.S. crusade has left their country.

The only real question is when will we leave?

We can't leave now, we are losing the crusade.
We can't leave now, we are winning the crusade.

BTW if we win this crusade, what exactly will we win.

  

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ablibWed Jul-11-07 08:58 AM
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#8. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to BobGuy (Reply # 7)


  

          

Quote:
Why exactly would all hell break loose?


You think the insurgence will go away when we leave? Are you that naive? NO! They're going to have a party terrorizing the region once we're gone. Even worse, all US soldiers aren't going to leave immediately we'll always have some there. This will create an intensely dangerous situation for the few US soldiers on the ground as they will be outnumbered.

All this can be avoided if Iraq steps up to the plate. Maybe even Iran too.

Quote:
And for how long would this be for?


It's been going on for centuries. It's not likely to stop soon.

Quote:
And I suspect they will still take care of themselves long after the failed U.S. crusade has left their country.


They will eventually become stable, just not right away.

And this isn't the first failed US "crusade" and it won't be the last.

Quote:
The only real question is when will we leave?


When the money runs out. So, very soon. Bout time too.


Quote:
BTW if we win this crusade, what exactly will we win.



I think we already won in some aspect. Saddam is gone and faced the punishment for his crimes. Something that would of never of happened without the United States of America.

Visit the Basement

  

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GroganWed Jul-11-07 04:01 PM
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#41. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 4)


  

          

The reality is, the region will revert back to centuries old feudal ways once left to their own devices. Dictatorships keep things in check and you destabilize things by trying to bring in your brand of democracy. It's not necessarily right for everyone.

Look at the Palestinians. Give them a vote and who do they vote for? Hamas! There will be peace only when one side is dead and gone.

Look what happened when you put the then oppressed Shiites in positions of power and authority? They were no better than the Sunni factions.

Grogan

  

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GroganWed Jul-11-07 08:55 PM
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#51. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 41)


  

          

I've been thinking about this a bit today and perhaps the good from the effort will be realized in a generation or two. If you could just get people used to living in peace the hatred may only persist in small circles (still to this day there are Nazi wannabes)

My concern is that this is a job that will seemingly never be finished because there's just too much hate. Probably not in our lifetimes. It's not just one side that hates the other, it's far more complicated. More like multiple groups that all hate each other. So it's time to attempt to get things in one last semblance of order and withdraw. There aren't the resources to remain there in force, forever. They'll bleed you dry.

So what's the answer, just install another dictatorship to replace Hussein? Of course not. Democracy is all we know. I'm sure that many of the people perceive themselves to be much better off despite what's still going on.

Terrorism itself will of course always be a never ending battle because they are infiltrated everywhere and can recruit the hopeless.

Grogan

  

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npmclWed Jul-11-07 07:22 AM
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#6. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 0)


  

          



Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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No_OneWed Jul-11-07 09:02 AM
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#9. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 6)


          

That cartoon by Peter Brookes is offensive, and in addition the flag is drawn wrong (and please, no comments about flying the flag upside down as a symbol of distress, those flags are not flying, their orientation when used like that never changes).

If flying the Union Flag suggests nationalism or statism for the English, something Euroweenies seem destined to toss on the ash heap of history, don't make the mistake of believing that sentiment exists in the US.

  

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jazz4freeWed Jul-11-07 09:52 AM
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#10. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to No_One (Reply # 9)


  

          

A niggling non sequitur and an all too obvious attempt at changing the uncomfortable subject.

  

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No_OneWed Jul-11-07 10:15 AM
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#12. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 10)


          

If double standards help you make it through your day, that's your problem, not mine. You can't pretend to honor their sacrifice one day and then defend using them in a cartoon the next.

I find the use of dead GIs (or dead anybodies) just to make a cheap political point in an editorial cartoon, by either liberal or conservative, to be beyond the pale for me.

On the other hand, maybe the cartoonist just made an ignorant mistake drawing the flag upside down, which is equally inexcusable. You excuse "niggling" details because errors are your stock-in-trade.

  

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jazz4freeWed Jul-11-07 11:25 AM
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#27. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to No_One (Reply # 12)


  

          

You think the cartoon makes a cheap political point at the expense of those who have been killed in service to their country, I think it effectively conveys the brutal reality of a delusional little man, who displays little if any public conscience, justly being pursued by the demons of his own nature.

You have a habit of presuming then assigning motivation to me. I have no way of defending myself against such personal attack with out sounding whiningly defensive. But I assume you know that.

I'll leave it to others to judge whether errors are my stock in trade or if I subscribe to double standards.

  

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ablibWed Jul-11-07 11:33 AM
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#29. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 27)


  

          

So far, this early in the morning, we have 4 Americans who think it's improper and 2 foreigners who don't see the big deal.


Do you see a problem with this picture?


I'm sure there are better ways of conveying that Bush is an idiot without disgracing our flag or our fallen heroes.

Visit the Basement

  

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giseudaWed Jul-11-07 11:43 AM
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#31. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 29)


  

          

Quote:
2 foreigners who don't see the big deal.


Let us portray their "fallen" in that way and see if they're not offended.

  

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npmclWed Jul-11-07 04:31 PM
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#42. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to giseuda (Reply # 31)
Wed Jul-11-07 04:45 PM by npmcl

  

          

Be my guest. I really wonder about the maturity of people who can get more worked up about the graphic depictions of flags and the coffins of fallen soldiers than the actual message that the cartoon is conveying of the REAL deaths of soldiers in agony and blood catching up with and finally crushing the person responsible. For goodness sake grow up.

  

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No_OneWed Jul-11-07 07:06 PM
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#46. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 42)


          

Quote:
Be my guest. I really wonder about the maturity of people who can get more worked up about the graphic depictions of flags and the coffins of fallen soldiers than the actual message that the cartoon is conveying of the REAL deaths of soldiers in agony and blood catching up with and finally crushing the person responsible. For goodness sake grow up.


You can stop wondering, and I'm fully grown up and matured, thanks. Many of the people arriving at Dover that those coffins represent died in CSHs I was working in, several died on my OR table or my triage area when there was literally nothing left to do, nothing, and that includes some courses of treatment you won't find in any hospital you will ever visit, at least not for a few more years.
From the PFC combat lifesaver out in the street, to the critical care staff in the back of a C-17 who have more equipment than many city hospitals, to the neurosurgeon in Landstuhl or WRAMC, everybody busts their ass to save everyone possible. In a sad way, each of those coffins means a failure for us, but I would personally appreciate it if you would not make light of it. People dying of their injuries is not the norm in this war, for good or ill.

And there are also a few of the fallen British soldiers and marines arriving at the mortuary at Brize Norton that have passed my way or though a CSH I was working in. But I am pleased to say there are many, many more in recovery in Portsmouth or Selly Oak hospital on the way to recovery if you could please just look after them a little better or already back to duty.

I keep a journal with some treatment details on just about everybody I have ever worked on in 4 deployments since 2002. I have followed up on more than a few after returning home, to check up on what worked best, or which treatments might cause problems so I can try to do better the next time someone gets hurt and I'm the one there trying to help. I fully understand the real agony and have had my hands in real blood more than you could ever comprehend, on 5 continents and countries I've lost track of, so don't presume to lecture me about what those coffins mean, trust me, I already know.

To you, those coffins are an abstraction meant to be used to make your cheap point; you don't like the US or President Bush, I can grasp that.
To me, those coffins represent real faces and real people; fathers, mothers, sons and daughters, and yes, some I was lucky enough to call friends. Something about which you choose to post an abstract cartoon means something entirely different to me.

It is a property of physics that your reference point determines how you observe things, from my reference point the cartoon is offensive, because, as you so glibly point out, those coffins do represent real people, some of whom I knew, and some of whose names are written down in my treatment log.

Next time I'm in London, I'll spray paint some graffiti on the Cenotaph. Presumably you would have no problems with that? Its just a symbol, right?

  

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npmclWed Jul-11-07 08:39 PM
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#50. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to No_One (Reply # 46)


  

          

You know what the coffins mean so the point of the cartoon should be even more meaningful to you and the devastation caused by the war should be even more outrageous to you. By all means spray the Cenotaph if it makes you feel better, it won't hurt the men whose deaths are symbolised by it, though it's weird that anyone would equate a newspaper political cartoon with a nation's memorial for its war dead.

  

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basa48Thu Jul-12-07 10:12 AM
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#52. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 42)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Be my guest. I really wonder about the maturity of people who can get more worked up about the graphic depictions of flags and the coffins of fallen soldiers than the actual message that the cartoon is conveying of the REAL deaths of soldiers in agony and blood catching up with and finally crushing the person responsible. For goodness sake grow up.


As I recall there was another group who got more than a little upset about a cartoon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5392786.stm

Tone
Tone

  

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ablibSat Jul-14-07 10:27 AM
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#64. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 42)


  

          

Quote:
I really wonder about the maturity of people who can get more worked up about the graphic depictions of flags and the coffins of fallen soldiers than the actual message that the cartoon is conveying of the REAL deaths of soldiers in agony and blood catching up with and finally crushing the person responsible. For goodness sake grow up


A grown up person would of removed the post if so many others found it offensive. I don't know about the others here but I GOT the point of the cartoon. It's crystal clear.

What is perhaps more disturbing to millions of patriotic Americans who love and fly their flag everyday is someone who doesn't understand the big deal. The person who authored this cartoon is an artist. Artists are creative people. I'm sure there are a million and one ways to convey the point in the cartoon without displaying the flag in an improper way and without devaluing the life of fallen soldiers.


In the words of a wise man:


"No other nation I am aware of views their flag with the kind of reverence we attach to ours. They have no strict rules on how their flags must be displayed. Don't expect them to understand our feeling about flag etiquette." - Sheldon Glick - 2007


I did not know this before, it's very clear now that it's true.

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jasonlevineWed Jul-11-07 01:58 PM
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#35. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 29)


  

          

Here's one American who doesn't see the big deal. First of all, it's not using the dead soldiers, per se, but caskets representing the deaths. Secondly, the point of the cartoon obviously isn't intended as a statement of any kind about the troops, but rather of President Bush's reaction to the rising casualties in Iraq.

A truly "vile" cartoon would be one showing Bush pinned under a growing pile of dead US soldiers.

- Jason Levine
Please donate to PCQandA!

  

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npmclWed Jul-11-07 10:51 AM
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#15. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to No_One (Reply # 9)


  

          

I would have thought that it's obvious to anyone that the depiction of the flag is purely symbolic, you'd hardly expect it to be drawn in full correct graphic detail, it's a cartoon!

  

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ablibWed Jul-11-07 10:56 AM
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#16. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 15)


  

          

It would of been a little better of a representation if the the flag wasn't upside down. I don't, however expect for all 50 stars to be drawn in detail.


I was more disappointed with how our fallen soldiers are portrayed as nothing more than dominoes.

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npmclWed Jul-11-07 11:01 AM
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#19. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 16)


  

          

If you really think about the meaning of the cartoon you'll realise that it's not at all disrespectful of dead soldiers, it's speaking on their behalf.

  

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No_OneWed Jul-11-07 11:10 AM
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#22. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 15)


          

Putting a flag on a coffin is definitely symbolic.

There is a reason the flag is draped with the union over the head and heart, I didn't expect you to know that or comprehend that, but I certainly didn't expect you to defend the mistake either.

It is wrong. Doing it correctly would take the same amount of time for the "artist".

  

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npmclWed Jul-11-07 11:18 AM
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#24. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to No_One (Reply # 22)


  

          

I doubt that any Britons are aware of that but even so it has no significance in the context of the meaning of the cartoon. I suggest that you direct your annoyance towards the much more important reasons for so many flag-bearing coffins.

  

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_Chewy_Wed Jul-11-07 03:47 PM
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#39. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to No_One (Reply # 9)
Wed Jul-11-07 03:50 PM by _Chewy_

  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
That cartoon by Peter Brookes is offensive, and in addition the flag is drawn wrong (and please, no comments about flying the flag upside down as a symbol of distress, those flags are not flying, their orientation when used like that never changes).


Hey wow, it's our aptly named member named No One feigning some vague hurtful feelings about a cartoon. Imagine that! Hmmm... if this get him riled up, I wonder how angry he gets when someone pisses in his coffee.

  

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No_OneWed Jul-11-07 05:25 PM
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#43. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to _Chewy_ (Reply # 39)


          

If you knew 1/100 the number of people I know who have been killed or injured in this war, or spent 1/100th as much time as I have at funerals in the past 5 years, your comments would appear asinine even to you.

And what have you done? Put a yellow ribbon magnet on your car?

PS: Is this the start of another one of your self-destructive rants where you embarrass yourself and then go hide and sulk for a while?
If it is I'll stay tuned, I always find those fascinating, in a sad kind of way.

  

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JohnnyRebWed Jul-11-07 06:33 PM
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#44. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to No_One (Reply # 43)


  

          

If you truly know so many dead in this war, I would think you might be a little bit more sympathetic to the point being conveyed in the cartoon.

So the flag was drawn upside down. Who cares. Bush wasn't drawn to scale either, if that really bothers you. And coffins haven't been shaped that way for many a year.

No political cartoon shows the world the way it really is. The whole "point" is to make a point. As such I am not offended by the cartoon. Would you have been equally offended if the cartoon had portrayed coffins draped in Iraqi flags?

  

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ablibSat Jul-14-07 10:30 AM
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#65. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to _Chewy_ (Reply # 39)


  

          

Co-workers once put pickle juice in my coffee. At that early in the morning that pissed me off! Pretty close to piss.

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Ed W.Wed Jul-11-07 10:29 AM
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#13. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 6)


          

Disgusting, but expected from you.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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ablibWed Jul-11-07 10:49 AM
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#14. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 13)
Wed Jul-11-07 10:50 AM by ablib

  

          

Whoa! I was offended too by the cartoon, but that's a little harsh on Noreen.

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npmclWed Jul-11-07 10:57 AM
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#17. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 13)


  

          

Yes I find the deaths of many hundreds of soldiers in an unnecessary war disgusting too.

  

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ablibWed Jul-11-07 10:58 AM
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#18. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 17)


  

          




We don't have to start that "unnecessary" argument again do we?

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npmclWed Jul-11-07 11:02 AM
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#20. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 18)
Wed Jul-11-07 11:04 AM by npmcl

  

          

No we don't but the word was necessary in the context of my reply.

  

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ablibWed Jul-11-07 11:15 AM
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#23. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 20)


  

          

Deaths in any war, necessary or unnecessary is disgusting.

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclWed Jul-11-07 11:20 AM
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#26. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 23)


  

          

Of course but obviously more so in an unnecessary one.

  

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_Chewy_Wed Jul-11-07 03:52 PM
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#40. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 13)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Disgusting, but expected from you.


And what can we expect from you Ed? Pure as the driven snow are you? Carry around your Bible everday? Help an old lady across the street? As far as I'm concerned, you're nothing but a sour puss whos sucked all his lemons dry.

  

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giseudaWed Jul-11-07 11:07 AM
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#21. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 6)


  

          

Vile.

  

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jazz4freeWed Jul-11-07 09:57 AM
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#11. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 0)


  

          

Good one, BobW!

  

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OldRayWed Jul-11-07 11:19 AM
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#25. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 0)


          

http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110010319

Dismiss it as conjecture if you like, but then thinking that all will be well if we up and go is conjecture also.

Ray

  

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ablibWed Jul-11-07 11:29 AM
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#28. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to OldRay (Reply # 25)


  

          

Quote:
that the world is a better and safer place because Saddam is out of power



Save it. The anti-war group are either too naive, uninformed or have their firewall on to logic.

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jazz4freeWed Jul-11-07 11:44 AM
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#32. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 28)


  

          

There you go again, Whippersnapper.

  

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ablibWed Jul-11-07 12:03 PM
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#33. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 32)
Wed Jul-11-07 12:05 PM by ablib

  

          

Well I don't see any other way to it.

Just because one doesn't like war isn't a reason to ignore problems.

And to say 3500 brave men and women died for nothing or died unnecessarily is deplorable, but is expected from the anti-war group.


It's nothing more than irresponsible.

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jazz4freeWed Jul-11-07 02:02 PM
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#36. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 33)


  

          

Quote:
Well I don't see any other way to it.


I don't know, Adam... How about trying not to lump everyone (as you do habitually) who differs with you politically into a homogeneous group and then plastering that group with labels like naive, uninformed and firewalled against logic.

You may well be justified in thinking me uninformed and naive and illogical but you certainly can't seriously think that of someone like Jason who leans left of center in much of his opinion, or, for that matter, Noreen, who is one of the best read and most articulate persons here. As on the right, there is a wide range of thought on the left.

The habit is more than mildly irritating, a bit high-handed, and cannot reflect well on the way others perceive your judgment overall.

  

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ablibSat Jul-14-07 10:36 AM
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#66. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 36)


  

          

Quote:
I don't know, Adam... How about trying not to lump everyone (as you do habitually) who differs with you politically into a homogeneous group and then plastering that group with labels like naive, uninformed and firewalled against logic.


I learned from the best (you). Come on don't be a hypocrite. You think the same way about people who don't have your beliefs.

Quote:
You may well be justified in thinking me uninformed and naive and illogical but you certainly can't seriously think that of someone like Jason who leans left of center in much of his opinion


Jason isn't far left, so no.


Quote:
or, for that matter, Noreen


I put her in the same category as you.


Quote:
The habit is more than mildly irritating, a bit high-handed, and cannot reflect well on the way others perceive your judgment overall.


Now you finally see how you come across!!

Seriously, you just described yourself to a "T".

Visit the Basement

  

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JohnnyRebWed Jul-11-07 06:36 PM
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#45. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 33)


  

          

Adam - do not be so hasty to lump the anti-war group into one pile. I am definitely anti-war. I DO think that the deaths were unecessary. But I do not support a rash withdrawal from Iraq.

I firmly believe that we have a moral imperative to remain and try our damnedest to clean up the mess that our fearless leader has caused. Leaving abruptly will have serious negative consequences for Iraq. Maybe even MORE negative than staying...

  

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ablibSat Jul-14-07 11:14 AM
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#67. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 45)


  

          

Quote:
Adam - do not be so hasty to lump the anti-war group into one pile. I am definitely anti-war. I DO think that the deaths were unecessary. But I do not support a rash withdrawal from Iraq.



Why does one have to be a literary genius, grammatical wizard, p]erfect typist, and spelling bee winner to be a part of this forum?

I think you know what I meant to say. Of course not all anti-war people think exactly alike. Put if you put 5000 of them in an auditorium I guarantee 99% of them will all have the same views.

Quote:
I firmly believe that we have a moral imperative to remain and try our damnedest to clean up the mess that our fearless leader has caused. Leaving abruptly will have serious negative consequences for Iraq. Maybe even MORE negative than staying...



I agree, but this is why I never put you on the far left. We're in a no win situation. We're getting so much liberal heat that it's even making the conservatives sweat. If we don't leave, this nonsensical Bush-bashing will continue, we break away and the few soldiers that remain in Iraq will be outnumbered and slaughtered and Iraq will be more of a mess than it is now. The Bush-bashing will still continue.

I don't know how bashing is constructive.

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npmclSat Jul-14-07 11:48 AM
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#70. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 33)


  

          

Quote:
but is expected from the anti-war group
Just to clarify I'm not anti-war, I'm just anti-THIS-war and have been since before it started.

  

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ablibSat Jul-14-07 11:58 AM
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#71. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 70)


  

          

What war was worth it?

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclSat Jul-14-07 12:59 PM
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#72. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 71)


  

          

1939-45

  

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ablibSat Jul-14-07 01:36 PM
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#73. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 72)


  

          

that's it?

Visit the Basement

  

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npmclSat Jul-14-07 03:21 PM
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#74. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 73)


  

          

You did only ask for one, I'm not going to trawl back through history for you.

  

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ablibSat Jul-14-07 09:51 PM
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#79. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 74)


  

          

You're anti war

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JordanSat Jul-14-07 04:39 PM
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#75. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 73)


  

          

That's the one where we saved their ass.

  

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JohnnyRebSat Jul-14-07 04:40 PM
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#76. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 75)


  

          

Typical response from Jordan. Completely without any sense of shame.

  

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JordanSat Jul-14-07 08:14 PM
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#77. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 76)


  

          

You are absolutely right. I am not ashamed of anything my country has done.

  

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JohnnyRebSat Jul-14-07 08:41 PM
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#78. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 77)


  

          

Not surprisingly, you missed the point. Do you feed yourself?

  

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ShellySun Jul-15-07 02:52 AM
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#81. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Jordan (Reply # 75)


  

          

Quote:
That's the one where we saved their ass.


You mean the war in which they stood alone against Hitler for nearly three years, while conservative Republican isolationists prevented us from assisting them? If Japan had not attacked us, we would never have been able to help. But then I would not expect any knowledge of history from you. You are very adept at insulting the only allied nation that ever paid off their war debt to us, at great national sacrifice. Had it not been for Britain, you might be speaking German today

Shelly

  

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KJTSun Jul-15-07 03:41 AM
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#82. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 81)


  

          

Quote:
Had it not been for Britain, you might be speaking German today


He's probably scratching his head and thinking "And that would be a bad thing?"

Jim.

  

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npmclSun Jul-15-07 07:21 AM
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#83. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 81)


  

          

Thank you Shelly. As you know I'm well aware of WWII as I lived through it and experienced things that most American civilians know nothing about and hopefully never will. Though sometimes I think that the experience might shake up some of the ignorant and complacent views expressed by some on this forum.

I'm also well aware that Britain's "ass" was actually saved by the heroism of the RAF and Hitler's mistake in invading the USSR and that was before the USA even entered the war. If Britain hadn't stood alone enduring constant battering there would have been no base from which to later launch the D Day invasion and the outcome of WWII could have been very different.

No one doubts the major contribution that the USA made in men, arms and aid when it eventually came into the war and we will always be grateful for it.

  

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DJCSun Jul-15-07 08:30 AM
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#84. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to npmcl (Reply # 83)
Sun Jul-15-07 08:40 AM by DJC

  

          

No one doubts the major contribution that the USA made in men, arms and aid when it eventually came into the war and we will always be grateful for it.

With out US Aid and manpower and equipment Great Britain would never have had the power to invade fortress Europe and free the people of Europe.

If Hitler had not messed it up at Dunkirk you would not have had a retuning army to your great shores. If he had sent in his tanks and army using his Air Force for air superiority The British Expeditionary forces would have never gotten off the beaches of Dunkirk.

  

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ShellyWed Jul-11-07 03:45 PM
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#38. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 28)


  

          

A few points. Iraq will be a mess for a long time after we leave, and no one in th west will be at all happy with whatever regime emerges there. At this point I see no prospect for anything short of a protracted civil war ending in a repressive muslim theocracy.

Of course all this was foreseeable from the day we turned a lightening strike to depose the Saddam regime into a protracted war that could not have been won with the military resources we had available.

For a long time our military strategy has been based upon relatively small ground forces supporting deterrent of advanced weapons to damp the eagerness of any potential enemy to challenge us. We were in no position to get bogged down in a lengthy war under conditions that would turn advanced weapons into scrap.

Once again nobody in Washington listened to the generals. They had their own uninformed ideas, and set out looking for generals who would agree with them. After ending the careers of a few generals who did not agree, they had no trouble finding others who would agree.

One other point. No other nation I am aware of views their flag with the kind of reverence we attach to ours. They have no strict rules on how their flags must be displayed. Don't expect them to understand our feeling about flag etiquette. They invented flags, but they were only intended to let mercenary soldiers know where their battle lines were located.

Shelly

  

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jazz4freeWed Jul-11-07 11:43 AM
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#30. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to OldRay (Reply # 25)


  

          

I have a diametrically opposite view toward every AEI talking point made in that article, but I thank you for getting this thread back on track.

  

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OldRayWed Jul-11-07 12:41 PM
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#34. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 30)


          

I respect your opinion. I can disagree with a well-reasoned opinion, and at the same time respect it. Wish more posters did so.

Knee jerk opposition to posters, their opinions, or certain politicians does not produce a constructive discussion.

Ray

  

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BobGuyWed Jul-11-07 07:21 PM
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#47. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 0)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
I am neither a proponent or opponent of President Bush ! However enough is enough,it was my hopes that the withdrawal would have already been completed,as I was hoping for no later than the 4th of July 2007. I conclude now that the man must be insane,what is it going to take to wake him up to reality ?

http://www.yahoo.com/s/623466


Found this scary cartoon about withdraw...

  

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ShellyWed Jul-11-07 07:36 PM
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#48. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 0)


  

          

GOP Senators Call for Iraq Change Now

Jul 11, 4:06 PM (ET)

By ANNE FLAHERTY

WASHINGTON (AP) - Several Republican senators told President Bush's top national security aide privately Wednesday that they did not want Bush to wait until September to change course in Iraq.

The meeting that lawmakers had with national security adviser Stephen Hadley came as GOP Sens. Olympia Snowe and Chuck Hagel announced they would back Democratic legislation ordering combat to end next spring.

Republican support for the war has steadily eroded in recent weeks as the White House prepared an interim progress report that found that the U.S.-backed government in Baghdad has made little progress in meeting major targets of reform.

Of the GOP lawmakers who say the U.S. should reduce its military role in Iraq, nearly all are up for re-election in 2008.

"I'm hopeful they (the White House) change their minds," said Sen. Pete Domenici, R-N.M.

Domenici and at least five other Republicans support a bill by Sen. Ken Salazar, D-Colo., that would adopt as U.S. policy the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group Report.

The bipartisan panel, led by Republican James A. Baker III and Democrat Lee Hamilton, said the U.S. should hand off the combat mission to the Iraqis, bolster diplomatic efforts in the region and pave the way for a drawdown of troops by spring 2008.

Domenici, who is expected to face voters next year, said he and other co-sponsors told Hadley the president shouldn't wait until September to adopt the bipartisan policy.

"The only difference of opinion at the moment is, the president wants to deal with the Baker-Hamilton recommendations in September," said Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn., one of the first GOP co-sponsors.

"I think he should do that today because it develops a long-term strategy for what happens in the surge," added Alexander, who also is up for re-election. "It would put him and Congress on the same path, which is what we definitely need."

Members said Hadley did not indicate the White House would switch gears. Bush this week said he will not reconsider the military strategy in Iraq until Gen. David Petraeus, the U.S. military commander there, delivers his progress report in September.

"He was not in a position to do anything other than say 'I hear you,'" Domenici said of Hadley.

Other Republicans at the meeting did not call for immediate change, but offered tepid support for the current policy.

Sen. Norm Coleman of Minnesota said he was seriously considering Salazar's legislation and remained gravely concerned about the lack of progress in Iraq.

"I'm still in the same place, and I don't think there were any hearts or minds changed in there," Coleman said upon leaving the meeting.

Sen. John Warner, R-Va., who also attended the meeting, is expected to call for a change in Iraq policy after Bush releases on Thursday that interim report on Baghdad's political progress.

Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, a staunch supporter of Bush's Iraq policies, said he and many others would stick behind Bush. But "obviously everyone was concerned, and we're trying to figure out what the answer is," he said.

GOP support has become crucial as the Senate opened debate on a $649 billion defense policy bill.

The Senate on Wednesday voted against advancing a measure that would have restricted combat deployments by requiring that troops spend as much time at home as in battle. The 56-41 vote on the proposal by Sen. Jim Webb, D-Va., fell four votes short of the 60 needed to cut off debate.

The Senate is expected to vote next week on an amendment by Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., that would order troop withdrawals to begin in 120 days and end all combat on April 30, 2008. The House plans to take up a similar measure on Thursday.

Levin's amendment is not expected to survive and Bush has vowed to veto it if it does. But in a signal of growing unease with the war, it has picked up at least one new vote from Snowe of Maine.

Snowe initially opposed setting a firm deadline, contending it would not make any sense to broadcast war plans to the enemy. But the senator, who is not up for re-election next year but faces a strong anti-war constituency, said she decided to switch her position because the situation has grown too dire.

"Frankly, given the fact that the Iraqi government isn't prepared to change its own political direction, we should be prepared to change course with respect to our strategy," Snowe told reporters Tuesday.

Hagel of Nebraska and Gordon Smith, R-Ore., also signed on as co-sponsors of the bill; both voted for a similar measure earlier this year.

Hadley's visit to Capitol Hill came as the White House finalized a 23-page progress report on Iraq that concludes the government in Baghdad has made little progress in meeting reform goals laid down by Bush and Congress.

The administration is likely to argue that some progress has been made in reducing the level of sectarian violence and militia control. Iraq also has established several, but not all, of the needed joint neighborhood security stations in Baghdad and has increased the number of capable Iraqi security units.

But the report also is expected to concede that several major goals have not been met, including agreement on new Iraqi laws to allocate oil and gas resources and revenue and to address amnesty for former Baath Party members. White House spokesman Tony Fratto said the report will indicate whether there has been "progress at a satisfactory rate, or unsatisfactory rate, and in some cases, maybe mixed results on some of those benchmarks."

Shelly

  

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basa48Fri Jul-13-07 06:40 AM
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#53. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 0)
Fri Jul-13-07 06:41 AM by basa48

          

Any bets as to what will happen now ?

Quote:
The House of Representatives voted 223-201 Thursday to require most U.S. troops to leave Iraq by April 1, 2008.


http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/12/iraq.vote/index.html

Tone
Tone

  

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bobwFri Jul-13-07 12:18 PM
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#54. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to basa48 (Reply # 53)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Any bets as to what will happen now ?

The House of Representatives voted 223-201 Thursday to require most U.S. troops to leave Iraq by April 1, 2008.


http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/12/iraq.vote/index.html

We all know that President Bush has promised a veto ! Will it be overridden ? I think there is a good possibility,given as his party loyalist are rapidly abandoning him ,as Shelly predicted.

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Bob HFri Jul-13-07 05:53 PM
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#55. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 54)


  

          

It would have to pass the Senate first and that's not likely.



  

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ShellyFri Jul-13-07 07:21 PM
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#56. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Bob H (Reply # 55)


  

          

Not yet but soon.

The Congress will be taking their Summer recess soon, they will be returning to their districts and getting an earful from their constituents. When they return to Washington, watch out.

Shelly

  

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pakoFri Jul-13-07 07:47 PM
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#57. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 56)
Fri Jul-13-07 07:49 PM by pako

          

Bullshit, there is little to worry about,they can't touch Bush. I'm surprised you would say that.


  

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npmclFri Jul-13-07 07:55 PM
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#58. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to pako (Reply # 57)


  

          

No, he's "touched" already.

  

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JohnnyRebFri Jul-13-07 08:09 PM
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#59. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to pako (Reply # 57)


  

          

Nice language there Pako... Do you kiss your wife with that mouth?

  

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bobwSat Jul-14-07 12:30 AM
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#60. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 59)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Nice language there Pako... Do you kiss your wife with that mouth?


And your response as usual is triple And yes you are very transparent.

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pakoSat Jul-14-07 12:44 AM
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#61. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 60)


          

Careful with this guy Bob, he thinks he is smart.




  

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ablibSat Jul-14-07 11:19 AM
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#69. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to pako (Reply # 61)
Sat Jul-14-07 11:20 AM by ablib

  

          

There is a great deal of intellect that goes with being a college professor.


You have to go to college to know that though.

Visit the Basement

  

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pakoSun Jul-15-07 07:49 PM
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#85. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to ablib (Reply # 69)


          

Quote:
There is a great deal of intellect that goes with being a college professor.



True, and a great many of them receive their papers still short of it.




  

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ShellySun Jul-15-07 08:20 PM
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#86. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to pako (Reply # 85)


  

          

And your basis for this? Have you studied with professors who were intellectually inadequate?

Shelly

  

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pakoMon Jul-16-07 10:45 PM
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#87. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 86)


          

Since it appears you didn’t understand, perhaps I will rephrase. Thank you for your inquisition.

Just cause one has a certificate of achievement and a title before or after his or her name doesn’t necessarily mean he or she is overly blessed with all the knowledge as some would like for others to believe.

Just my obnoxious opinion, so don’t get all hot and bothered, you know I agree with you most of the time.





  

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ShellyMon Jul-16-07 11:56 PM
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#88. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to pako (Reply # 87)


  

          

You will agree all the time, you will be assimilated...

Shelly

  

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JohnnyRebTue Jul-17-07 04:20 AM
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#89. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to pako (Reply # 87)


  

          

Pako, education is not about "knowledge." It is more about learning how to collect, analyze, and incorporate information. In effect, it is about learning how to think.

Most fields of education become more and more specialized as you increase in level. As such, they are relativley worthless if your goal is general knowledge. However, through higher education you become more adept at quickly scanning new information, seeing patterns, connecting it with existing information, and using it to increase your general "knowledge." At least that is the goal...

  

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ShellyTue Jul-17-07 03:14 PM
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#90. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 89)


  

          

Indeed by the time a student graduates college in any scientific or engineering field, nearly all the knowledge he gas acquired in school is obsolete.

At some point in the last century the increase in human knowledge went from increasing at a linear rate to increasing at an exponential rate. This has resulted in increasing specialization in most professional fields.

Today the sum total of human knowledge doubles every five years. In some scientific and engineering fields it is increasing at twice that rate! When I left school the doubling was occurring every ten years. About half of all the scientific and technical papers published in the history of the human race have been published in the last 30 years.

Today more than ever, the thing worth learning in a college or university is how to do the research and comprehend the information gathered to be able to keep up in your specialty.

The original universities were essentially libraries and the teachers guided the students in finding and digesting the information within the library. Such has always been the evolution of higher education. A graduate has little career future if he relies on only that information memorized in school. Useful education must be lifelong endeavor.

Shelly

  

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JohnnyRebSat Jul-14-07 09:12 AM
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#62. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to bobw (Reply # 60)


  

          

Since you demonstrate continually your incapacity to see anything of substance, then I suppose everything is transparent to you, Bob...

  

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jazz4freeSat Jul-14-07 10:09 AM
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#63. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 62)


  

          

You can not prevail when the jackal pack attacks. They have a strength of idiot numbers cloned into one gigantic stupid brain. They gut-feel an opportunity to pounce. They swarm like maggots on a corpse. Kinda like those pseudo-commie buggers in Star Trek who were plugged into each other -- the Borg?

Yeah -- the cretin Borg of PCQ&A.

  

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ablibSat Jul-14-07 11:18 AM
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#68. "RE: Bush Threatens To Veto Iraq Withdrawal Date"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 59)


  

          

He typed it. So it would be more proper to say, does he touch his wife with those fingers?

Visit the Basement

  

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