Though I've never been there, I've been told that Bali and Figi are beautiful places. Now the Islamic maniacs are causing mayhem in Bali. The Muslims complain that the west is waging a religious war. It is they who seek to impose their barabaric and backward world view on the rest of the earth. Just heard on FoxNews that the death toll is at 150 and some Al Qaeda related group is responsible.

http://www.canada.com/news/story.asp?id=%7B05AE461E-6285-48D8-BA1D-9641D6598BF7%7D

Bali is indeed a nice place. Then again, if you were to remove 99% of the religious wackos, a lot of places around the world would be considered "nice".

I wonder if these people know what kind of damage they are doing to Islam. You would think that it would be pretty easy to say "Hmm.. Lets see, we have Manifest Destiny in the Mythical West, The Crusades in Europe, and Jihad in the Middle East... something about all these things seems oddly familiar", but its always hard to see how much of an asshole you are until after the deed is done.

"I wonder if these people know what kind of damage they are doing to Islam."

Perhaps they have done the world the favor of revealing its true nature.

>"I wonder if these people know what kind of damage they are
>doing to Islam."

It's my understanding that they genuinely believe they are performing a positive service in the name of Islam by carrying a message to the "decadent" West that Islam (employing whatever methods it chooses) is stronger and will prevail all over the globe.

Their attitude seems to say "all non-believers are fair game for destruction".

Louis

i wish i knew the answer to all this. neither history nor literature seems to offer an alternative to wars. :'(

sophie

You & I & the world will NEVER know.........

Bali is inddeed a great place, and the native population are wonderful people. Yes, they are Muslim, the two are not incompatible.
The bastards responsible for this act have a strange set of values, as they have effectively destroyed the Balinese economy, which is probably 90% centred on tourism, largely from Australia.

Insert text here

last count, 182.

this is indeed a tragedy.

nobody claimed responsibility so far. i just wonder, why do you keep attacking islam and muslims? by now you should be knowing that such acts have nothing to do with islam or true muslims. Just remember for every action there is a reaction.

bin Laden has never officially claimed responsibility for the WTC attack, so I guess we'll just let him go on his merry way. If you read the article, the official line is that they are treating it as a terrorist attack, committed by a radical Islamic group.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/10/13/bali.blast/index.html

BTW, I don't attack just Muslims. Christians, Jews, Hindu, Buddhists, etc. are all fair targets when they act like assholes. Religion is not what is written down, its what you make of it and how you apply it to your life.

After the attack on the World Trade Center, Muslims all over the world expressed support for what happened. They may not be terrorists, themselves, but they expressed support. It is Islam that is so fond of refering to the rest of the world as "infidels" and infidels are fair game for murder, so says the Prophet. Like people of other faiths around the world, there are no doubt those who were raised Muslim but don't really adhere to the tenets of the religion. I know many people who would say they are Christian who have no clue about what's in the Bible. I was raised Catholic and by the time I was a teenager became curious about what I felt did not add up to spirituality, in my view. I took the time to examine Catholic and Biblical teaching and decided it was full of lies, cruelty, inconsistancies and downright insanity. I used my head rather the the "fear of God" to find a new path. My critisism is equaly applied. Those who claim Islam is peaceful are liars. There may be peaceful Muslims but the religion teaches MURDER and oppression. Now, if we lived during the Crusades, I'd be going on about that - BUT WE DON'T.
*********************************************************************

1. Quran,Sura 9:5: The Quran requires violence " Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleauger them "

2. Quran, Sura 5:33: in reference to people who resist Islam " Their punishment is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides"

3. Quran, Sura 4:34: " Men are the managers of the affairs of women.. Those you fear may be rebellious; admonish;banish them to their couches and beat them"

4. Quran, Surah 5:54: teaching Muslims to hate others who are not Muslim: " O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other"

5. Hadith; vol.9:57: " whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him"

6. Hadith; vol.1:234: states that Muhhamad burned out people's eyes with hot irons. Hmmm... don't recall Jesus ever doing that, do you?

7. Hadith; vol. 96: states that Muhhamad deprived people of water until they died.

8. Hadith; vol.1:28,301 vol.2:161: states that the majority of people in hell are women.

9. Hadith; vol. 11: states that Muhammad was indeed a sinner as he states " O Allah, set me apart from my sins"

10. Hadith; vol.9:50: " No muslim should be killed for killing a kafir ( infidel )" They can kill us with no penalty, but if they quit religion, they die.

Read the Bible lately?

Insert text here

Quran is the word of God, you can not merely translate a surah and be able to understand what it means. That's just beyond you.

I was not the translator. Perhaps you would care to translate and clarify the misunderstanding.

If you are trying to insinuate that only a Muslim can understand the word of Allah, you must seek therapy. There are plenty of non-Muslim scholars that have translated the Qur'an over the years, and plenty of Muslims, and I have a feeling that most would be nearly identical. What is more important is the familiarity with the language.

BTW, no book is the word of any god. They are written by men, I haven't yet seen a book that says "by God" on the front.

>I haven't yet seen a book that says "by God" on the front.

That just shows how shallow minded you are. We can go on debating for years, but the truth remains the truth willing to accept it or not.

Religious belief is just that - belief. You are entitled to believe what ever you want and fortunately, in this country, that right is acknowleged and protected - unlike Islamaic theocracies. I don't care if someone wants to worship lamp posts as long as they don't attempt to impose that belief on others.

So, rather than bother to address the issue your just going to hang out and give me your self-righteous bullshit all day? Oh, I'm so unenlightened, help, help, I'm going to burn in hell, who will save me from my own ignorance? Grogan, help!!! I'm falling!

Personally I would like to throttle whoever is responsible for this mindless act. Many Australians have died or been seriously injured from this. A lot of the footy teams in Australia would have been on end of season cruises and Bali is always a favourite destination. Watched 60 Minutes in Australia here last nite and our PM says at the moment they dont know who did it or whether it was directed at us. Both bars targeted are known as Westerners Bars so that suggests the target was us.

These people make me sick with their continued carnage on the innocents of this world.

Mick

Used to ply between Indonesia, malaysia, Singapore and Eastern US when I was sailing on Merchant Ships.
Indonesia, a beautiful country, nice friendly people but a very corrupt government, police and army.
Nowadays I steer clear of vacations in these unstable countries. In fact I felt safer, when vacationing, in Communist countries like Cuba and China than in some of the other "so called" democracies.
Indonesia has the largest Muslim population in the world scattered around thousands of islands, a great hiding place for terrorists.

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

Muslims or otherwise, this vile attack was carried out by terrorists. He, she, or they may belong to some group, or not, but they are still terrorists, always involved in the crusade for evil to triumph over good.

Terrorist are without conscience or pity and their intent is the overthrow of civilized society, without regard for who or how may get killed or maimed along the way.

As in wartime, eternal vigilance is required of civilized populations as a whole, because the man/woman in the street can be as likely to spot suspicious behaviour as may be the authorites.

I know, speaking as Brit, that President Bush is less than popular with some of you, but he is the first Western leader who is seriously facing up to the real problems of terrorism - which we lived with in Britain for over 30 years, without successive governments here really getting to grips with that problem.

The very firmest of fists is require to slam down on terrorists and Bush at least shows signs of going to do doing something about it.

He'd better, because the next terrorist bomb might be atomic, nuclear, chemical or biological! And it could go off near any of us.

I weep for the dead in Bali - Australian, British and those from other lands.

Mitch

On Sunday, I watched a National Geographic program, with reporter Peter Bergen (author of "Holy War, Inc."), on MSNBC cable. It was on missing and stolen nuclear (nucular-Bushspeak) materials - a lot of it. I know that MSNBC re-runs these programs so if you have the chance, catch it. Very frightening.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/10/1011_021011_nuclear.html

That is a lot of people that were taken out by one act of terrorism. Seems like terrorists and radicals out for blood are getting a bit smarter at carrying out there plans of destruction. Its aweful that so much grief and death can come from a single act planned out by just a few individuals. Aweful! I feel for the victims and their familes.

Garbru

Freespirit,

Pretty self-righteous talk from someone who lives in a country who has and continues to support the same Arab population that you and the US-controlled American media now vilify. Why don't you explain the profound hypocrisy on behalf of the US who has supported atrocities around the world--including brutal dictatorships and oppressive regimes where tens of thousands have been murdered--all apparently contrary to the so-called civilized Christian world. The US has aided and supported the oppressive regime in Saudi Arabia since the cold war where women aren't even allowed to drive--not to mention the recent support of Saddam and the government in Turkey who are both responsible for terrible atrocities and acts of terrorism.

And explain why it is you believe that if the US is justified in reacting to terrorists acts by bombing Afghanistan, that countries like Cuba, Nicaragua, Haiti and many others wouldn't be justified to react to US Terrorists acts and global denomination by bombing the US?

This perpetual myth of a good verses evil scenario of the world is really tiresome and quite sophomoric. Instead of being like so many other unquestioning Americans looking for someone to blame like some two-year-old child, make an attempt to understand what lies behind these terrorist activities instead of continually attempting to portray the US as a victim. It's corporate-global domination that is the real threat, not the Arabs.

The fact is, terrorism is primarily a weapon of the strong, not the weak. It is held to be weak because the strong control the doctrinal systems and their terror doesn't count as terror. Nazi's weren't carrying out terror in occupied europe, they were protecting the population from the terrorism of the partisans. Nazi's were carrying out counter terrorism.

Nazi's were not carrying out counterterrorism. The British and French were in a state of limbo, led to believe that a confrontation with Hitler would mean destructive losses beyond imagination. This is why they called the policy "appeasement". When Hitler moved troops into the Rhineland with express orders to RETREAT if they encountered any resistance, the French simply took off. The lingering images and horrific losses of WWI were still fresh in the minds of the French and British. And when Hitler asked to annex part of Czechoslovakia, nobody bothered to stand up to him (as the US did with Iraq, even though the area was of huge strategical value, so don't give me any shit about oil). And what happened? Hitler invaded the rest of Czechoslovakia, annexed it, and started off on his merry way to Poland.

Germany was under the conditions of the Treaty of Versaille to NOT REARM... but they did it anyway, because they knew that the will of the French and the British was weak. And we all know what the results were. Hitler began to rearm his troops, to build up his infantry and to develop highly advanced armored divisions, and still nothing was done, all for the sake of APPEASEMENT. And Hitler happily carries out his plan of massacre, all because someone decided that it would be best to just let him do his thing. I'm telling you right now, that won't happen again. I could really care less if some religous wacko gets his feeling hurt because I tell him not to f*** with me.

"Nazi's were not carrying out counterterrorism."

That's my whole point.

And if you're trying to equate Saddam's defeated army and his worthless Republican Guard to the threat of Hitler, that's a joke. The invasion of Iraq will be nothing short of a massacre. And if you think it's not about oil and US control of the region, then you choose not to look at reality.

"Nazi's weren't carrying out terror in occupied europe, they were protecting the population from the terrorism of the partisans. Nazi's were carrying out counter terrorism."

Then why does the second sentence in the above quote say "Nazi's were carrying out counter terroism" ??????

I'm not equating Saddam or his Republican Farce to Hitler, although I think I did here that Saddam only has one testicle

"Nazi's were carrying out counter terrorism."

You're missing the point! That was his expressed rationale to the people of his country.

OK, I got it now...you didn't mention Hitler or even "he said", so I thought you were going nuts on me

HAl,

You know absolutely nothing about military affairs by your own admission. Any war against Iraq will not be a joke to the men and women who have to fight it, or to the families of those who don't come home.

Comparisons of appeasement are very valid, and Saddam has the potential (with WMD) of being just as serious a threat as Hitler. Hitler would have been a two-bit dictator that was knocked out of power if he'd been stood up to in 1935-1938. Instead we have Chamberlain and "Peace in our time". Personally, I'd rather keep Saddam a two-bit dictator by knocking him out of power before he gets the tools to attempt to compete with Hitler and Stalin.

Nor would it be a joke to the innocent Iraqis in the middle. Comparisons to Hitler are absurd. Who's he going to invade? He's surrounded by US allied countries like Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. He certainly wouldn't shoot for Kuwait.

Based on your reasoning, we should invade every country that poses a threat of the use of WMD's. Why not start with China.

Has China USED WMD before? Saddam has.

Do you mean when the US supplied Saddam with army intelligence reports to use mustard gas on the Kurds?

How about the 1991 use of chemical and biological weapons during the Gulf War? Even more serious, how about the 1991 orders to use biological weapons against Tel Aviv? How about the 1992 use of chemical and biological weapons against the Kurds? And the US did not provide Saddam with intelligence for the purpose of targeting chemical weapons (more than mustard gas) in 1988. Your sources are poor.

>And the US did not provide Saddam with intelligence
>for the purpose of targeting chemical weapons (more than
>mustard gas) in 1988. Your sources are poor.

"But yesterday former US officers said the Iraqis regularly built chemical attacks into battle plans that were drawn up for them by the US...."

"But the detailed allegation that chemical weapons were integrated into battle plans that were prepared by the US is new, and it could not have come at a worse time for the Bush campaign to march on Baghdad. A spokesman for Mr Powell denied the allegation, but would give no detail...."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/18/1029114048796.html

"Iraqi chemical attacks on Iranian troops -- and US assistance to Iraq -- continued throughout the Iran-Iraq war. In a parallel program, the US defence department also provided intelligence and battle-planning assistance to Iraq...."

"...Mustard gas laced with a nerve agent has been used on Iranian soldiers … a team of UN experts has concluded … Meanwhile, in the Iraqi capital of Baghdad, US presidential envoy Donald Rumsfeld held talks with foreign minister Tariq Aziz.''..."

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0208/S00158.htm

The New York Times (8/18/02) reported that, according to senior military officers with direct knowledge of the secret program, U.S. officials "provided Iraq with critical battle planning assistance at a time when American intelligence agencies knew that Iraqi commanders would employ chemical weapons in waging the decisive battles of the Iran-Iraq war..."

"It's long been known that the U.S. gave Iraq satellite intelligence to prevent an Iranian victory. But the Times article includes new information revealing the extent of U.S. involvement: "More than 60 officers of the Defense Intelligence Agency were secretly providing detailed information on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for airstrikes and bomb- damage assessments for Iraq...."

"This Pentagon program continued even when it became clear that the Iraqi military "had integrated chemical weapons throughout their arsenal and were adding them to strike plans that American advisers either prepared or suggested." U.S. plans in fact were made knowing that Iraq would use chemical weapons..."

http://rwor.org/A/V24/1161-1170/1165/us-iraq.htm

You rely on the media, who also reported that the US used Sarin gas in Vietnam (although any idiot could have figured out that one), I rely on the people who were actually involved and there.

Well, if ain't Hal9000! You (and anyone who has read my posts) know my feelings about the corporate New World Order. You twist my objection to the ambition of Muslims to bring the world under theocratic rule, into support for western imperialism. Did it ever occur to you that it is possible to see both as a problem? You remind me of Jane Fonda, sitting in a Viet Cong tank because she disapproved of US involvement in the Viet Nam war. This side is bad, therefore that side must be good. Well I don't see it that way. Crashing planes into the World Trade Center won't slow down the corporate agenda one iota. It did cause pain to thousands of innocent people who do not control US policy in the middle east. Murdering and burning hundreds of tourists in Bali will not bring Indonesia under Islamic rule, which is what the terroists want. I may detest our involvement with Saudi Arabia but I am not going to embrace the backward and barbaric ways of Isalm as penance for the actions of the powerfull. Now sinse you know that the power machine is going to do what it wants, what do you feel will even the score? A dirty nuke in the middle of Manhatten? Bio attack on L.A.? Bombing of a nulear plant on Lake Michigan, perhaps?

I twist nothing. I point out the arrogant hypocrisy in choosing only to focus on secular Arab terrorism by those who were funded and brought to power by the US which implies that the US is a victim. I seem to have missed you pointing that out when you said, " It is they who seek to impose their barabaric and backward world view on the rest of the earth." The why did we, and why do we support them. Don't forget to mention that next time.

Does it occur to me that both global domination and terrorism are problems...isn't that what I pointed out in my post? "Make an attempt to understand what lies behind these terrorist activities instead of continually attempting to portray the US as a victim. It's corporate-global domination that is the real threat, not the Arabs...." If anyone's acting like Jane Fonda it's you..."this side is bad, therefore that side must be good." Lol!

The 911 bombing was a horrible tragedy, but the gun was turned the other way. People in other countries have been far more devastated by US sanctioned terrorism--terrorism that's not even acknowledged as as terrorism.

This will escalate till in the end there will be death and destruction on bibical scale. The Muslims will be the first to use nuclear material and bacteria, the US or Irael will be the last.

Vast parts of America, Africa, Europe, Pacific, Indian subcontinent, all the "stans, perhaps even parts of China and certainly the Middle East will be contaminated waste lands.

By the time any moderate Muslims try to put on the brakes, it will be too late.

If you are not up todate, Israel has six diesel subs with nuclear weapons in the Indian Ocean.

Before when we fought religous wars we did not have the nuclear weapons and the slaughter was horrific, not it will be the restart of humanity.

If the DC sniping team is Muslim, you can start the clock because all of the folks I am talking to are saying the Muslims throughout the world are ready to join.

We played "Cowboys and Indians", guess it is time to play "Cowboy and Muslim"

This problem of Muslim agression sells far to much ad time to be ignored, so the war drums will beat and we have no choice anyway.


"They are wanting to kill us, they are waiting to kill, they are dying to kill us."

Under Construction

Casca,

I agree. The invasion of Iraq will only unite the Arab world against the US. The ultimate prize for the US is Saudi Arabia and control of the oil rich region where more than one fourth of the world's oil is located. It also happens to be the religious center of all Muslims known as Mecca, the most holy city in Islam. Our military presence there in combination with our western influence of greed on the current Saudi regime is what has contributed to most terrorism aimed at the US by Arab fundamentalist. What were the targets of the terrorists? A financial center and the headquarters of the US Department of Defense.

But it's hard to think of a country that doesn't pose a WMD threat.
Israel poses a major threat according to Clinton's former head of Strategic command. Turkey poses a threat, constantly invading Northern Iraq and who has also carried out huge atrocities in the late 1990's thanks to Clinton funneling in arms. The US and Britain are a threat Iran is a threat and Pakistan and India are close to destroying one another.

Hal - George Washington warned against getting involved in the business of foreign nations. Now, you know me. I don't support our involvement in these places. We should never have stuck our noses in the middle east, especially. Many westerners feel that way. The problem is that the little guy is not in charge right now and all of us are reaping what has been sown by the powers that be. I have no argument with anyone, in another country, not wanting us there. The thing is, the damage has been done. Holy war is being waged NOW against the west. We're not just talking about people who dislike our presence and if we leave all will be forgotten. There is a forbidable faction that hates our guts. They think we are infidels because we are not Muslim, they hate our permissive culture, they think western women are shamefull for not wearing those stupid shrouds that Muslim women do, they see our culture as Santanic. They are reigiuos zealots ready to nuke us if they get their hands on the supplies. This is beyond government. It's an enormous culture clash. Stop lecturing me about the wrongs of the government - we are in agreement about that. What I think you fail to see is that the people waging holy war are not going to stop and they couldn't care less about those who may empathise with their problems. We are not Muslim and they want us eliminated. Period.

Santanic - Those who worship Carlos Santana

yeah, they don't like him, either!

Freespirit,

Forty-five years ago Eisenhower discussed with his staff--secretly then, it's been public for the last 10 years--the campaign of hatred against the US in the Middle East, not by governments but by the people. The National Security Council explained the reasons: that there's a recognition in the region that the US supports corrupt and brutal governments and blocks democracy and development because of our interest in Mid East oil.

Additionally, you have very ignorantly sectored off all Arabs into one group and the cultural differences you raise regarding their view of our permissive culture is not shared by all Arabs and does not exclusively constitute the complaints expressed by fundamentalist Arabs.

The damage that you say is done will continue to be done as long as the US continues to ignore making attempts to understand what lies behind these terrorist activities. You seem to think that all Arabs are inherently evil while ignoring the evil, greed and control for power that is being committed on behalf of the US. You think the Arabs are waging a "Holy War" but what do you call the "War on Terrorism?" What is that? The US is attempting to gain global domination while calling it a "War on Terrorism."

The world is much more complex than the simplistic view you continue to portray. If you continue to vilify the entire Arab world, you will be guilty of what many Arab's are guilty of by hating all of America.

And here Hal sits, under the protection of American ideals, completely oblivious to the fact that without our evilness and greed, he would be living in a country that prides itself on the number of blasphemous heathens it beheads every year.

Nobody is saying that the world is perfect, but you take what you can get, you try to make it better, etc. The difference here is that certain Islamic groups (and they are not in the minority in many countries) would like to see us dead because we DON'T kill enough of our own people, because we DON'T make our women walk around covered from head to toe, and that we encourage our children to question things around them. God forbid you have an original thought in one of these place.

Are you talking about the same protection of American Ideals which led to the extermination of the native peoples of the Americas, who were replaced by raping Africa for humans it then denigrates and dehumanizes as slaves, while cheapening and degrading its own working class? I don't need American Ideals to know that I was born free, that's what's called inalienable rights. The very foundation of government, therefore, rests on the inalienable rights of the people and of each individual composing their mass.

Criticizing the government is something that was encouraged in the Declaration of Independence. While you seem to be comfortable pointing your finger and casting blame at others for the causes of the world's problems, I view the world objectively and clearly in an attempt to understand them.

"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your thinking..." The Godfather

>Are you talking about the same protection of American Ideals
>which led to the extermination of the native peoples of the
>Americas,

Yes. I'm 1/4 Cherokee, so thats "my people" your talking about.

who were replaced by raping Africa for humans it
>then denigrates and dehumanizes as slaves, while cheapening
>and degrading its own working class?

And African middlemen deserve just as much blame as the English and Americans. They used their power to trade slaves for guns, so they could fight their own genocidal war.

I don't need American
>Ideals to know that I was born free, that's what's called
>inalienable rights. The very foundation of government,
>therefore, rests on the inalienable rights of the people and
>of each individual composing their mass.
>
>Criticizing the government is something that was encouraged
>in the Declaration of Independence. While you seem to be
>comfortable pointing your finger and casting blame at others
>for the causes of the world's problems, I view the world
>objectively and clearly in an attempt to understand them.
>

I don't think you view the world clearly at all. I think you see it the way you want to see it, as one giant conspiracy. I am comfortable pointing my finger, provided I can back up the assertation that I am making with data. Not doing so would be apathy, which is what you are doing by shifting blame completely to the United States for all the worlds problems, and not looking at the big picture.

>"Never hate your enemies, it clouds your thinking..." The
>Godfather

>Yes. I'm 1/4 Cherokee, so thats "my people" your talking
>about.

You never know who you're talking to Doc, I am also part Cherokee. And besides, what's that got to do with what I said?

>And African middlemen deserve just as much blame as the
>English and Americans. They used their power to trade slaves
>for guns, so they could fight their own genocidal war.

I never said they didn't. I reminded you of the full spectrum of your one sided, benevolent version of American Ideals.

>I don't think you view the world clearly at all. I think you
>see it the way you want to see it, as one giant conspiracy.

Lol! You have a far more conspiratal view of the world than I, by chracterizing most of the Arab world in the Bushonian terms of the "Axis of Evil." I critique all the players objectively and independently. I oppose all forms of terrorism, including US forms. We manipulated Syria, and other Arab countries to go to war in alliance with the United States against Iraq. Arab nationalism is dead. The only thing left is a violent form of Arab fundamentalism. Besides wanting control of oil and gas pipelines, we sponsored war in Afghanistan to set up operations to destabilize the governments in other Arab countries.

>I am comfortable pointing my finger, provided I can back up
>the assertation that I am making with data. Not doing so
>would be apathy, which is what you are doing by shifting
>blame completely to the United States for all the worlds
>problems, and not looking at the big picture.

That's doubletalk and you're accusing me of what you're guilty of. Why don't you point your finger at everyone invloved. I've provided plenty of data for you to be able to realize that it's not only the Arabs that contribute to the world's problems. What data have you provided other than US mainstream media hype?

I don't by any stretch of the imagination subscribe to Bush's description or definition of any "Axis of Evil". Thats a wrong assumption on your part. The way I see it, you mention the US involvement with slavery, and I say "yes, we were involved with slavery, but we are just as evil and naughty as African middlemen", but for some reason you see that as still being one sided.. how is that?

Doc,

Because African middlemen were accessories after the fact and would have nothing to exploit without europeans and others going to Africa to begin with. I would agree that it doesn't dismiss the African middlemen's complicity.

During the Second World War, the Ukraines turned in Ukrainian Jews, the Czechs turned in Czech Jews and Jews fought for the Germans--so how does all that diminish or make different Hitler's Fascism and annihilation of the Jews.

You've made claims that "...certain Islamic groups (and they are not in the minority in many countries) would like to see us dead because we DON'T kill enough of our own people..." With this comment you've implied that the majority of Islamic groups in many countries are nothing but homicidal maniacs only interested in seeing the US murder it's own people. These types of comments are not only misleading but irresponsible. Your comment, and others on this thread suggest that a significant amount of crazed religious Arabs are aligned, organized, united and poised to kill every breathing American on Earth! Lol! Nothing could be further from the truth. You may not realize it but creating a threat and then providing the security is the oldest trick in the book--the mob calls it the Protection Racket.

According to Testimony Prepared for Hearings on Iraq Policy Senate Foreign Relations Committee, "...More significantly, the Iraqi regime's brutal treatment of its own population has generally not extended to international terrorist attacks. The State Department's own compilation of terrorist activity in its 2001 Patterns of Global Terrorism, released May 2002, does not document a single serious act of international terrorism by Iraq. Almost all references are either to political statements made or not made or hosting virtually defunct militant organizations...." http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-02.htm

How much do you know about Arabs, their religion, their culture or what countries they are from?

"...Arabs belong to many religions, including Islam, Christianity, Druze, Judaism and others..." "...Be careful to distinguish religion from culture. Although Arabs are connected by culture, they have different faiths. Common misperceptions are to think that Arab traditions are Islamic, or that Islam unifies all Arabs..." "...Only about 12 percent of Muslims worldwide are Arabs...."

"...Arab Americans trace their roots to many places, including parts or all of Algeria, Bahrain, Djibouti, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. Some Arabs are Israeli citizens...."
http://www.freep.com/jobspage/arabs/index.htm. Did you know that Iranians are not Arabs and don't speak the same language? Did you happen to read Mr. Man's post?

And I keep saying this over and over and over again: Terrorism is being committed by many people all over the world but historically is not a weapon of the weak but rather overwhelmingly the strong. It is held to be weak because the strong control the doctrinal systems and their terror doesn't count as terror. American forces have bombed, attacked, occupied or organized armed subversion in more than a dozen countries: Nicaragua, Panama, Grenada, Haiti, Somalia, Sudan, Libya, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and the various states and fragments comprising the former Yugoslavia.

"...certain Islamic groups (and they are not in the minority in many countries) would like to see us dead because we DON'T kill enough of our own people..."

Hal, that wasn't a comment on population, but on control factors (i.e., the Taliban was a minority government, but retained control). That happens in a lot of countries (including the good ol USA, right now, with Herr Bush in the lead). But I'm beginnning to see where your argument is going, and I think I agree with you on most points. Although, you should know that the slave trade did exist in Africa long before the British, French, and Dutch decided to land there. Just not on as large of a scale. That doesn't mean that the US or Britain is exempt from responsibility, but it does have some importance.

Doc,

I cannot tell you how gratified I am at reading your post. I appreciate your patience and courage in just considering some of the things I've said. Thank you Doc!

No race of people throughout history is without blood on their hands. Given time all who have been oppressed become the oppressors and it is fear and hate that divides us all.

You're both part Cherokee, but the Cherokee were exterminated? Which is it, Hal?

Ever had an exterminator come to your house? Just like cockroaches, the Cherokee WILL come back to get ya

>there's a recognition in the region that the US supports corrupt and brutal governments and blocks democracy and development because of our interest in Mid East oil.

thats the major reason plus isreal protection.

Then why is Bali a target?

and Bali?

Bali is a target because of a few reasons

1. It is about 90% Hindu, while the rest of Indonesia (about 85%??) is Muslim.

2. Its a huge tourist attraction, mostly for Australians, who are allied with the U.S.

3. Its a huge economic target. The money it is losing (and terrorist see it as "the west" losing money) will be in the billions.

4. It is known throughout the world as a icon of westerninsm (is that a real word?) being accepted in a traditionally non-western society.

and, ultimately, very little to do w/Israel or oil. more of the infidel agenda on this one.

"Its a huge economic target. The money it is losing (and terrorist see it as "the west" losing money) will be in the billions."

..."it's known throughout the world as a icon of (west)..."

What is it about that that you don't understand?

Bali is predominantly Hindu. Vacationers from all over enjoy, not only the beauty of the place but, scanty clothing, liquor, dancing in mixed company, etc. There is a dangerous religious agenda going on, as well, that you don't seem to get or are deliberately glossing over.
In Iran, it was not enough to get rid of the Shah (a monster). The Islamic agenda went way beyond that. Instead of freedom from oppression, the Iranians got the Ayatollah Khomeini.

and BTW - I asked "what about Bali" to stress the point that this is a war of cultures. It is not just political oppression that motivates these terrorists. This is a religious war, first and foremost.

>and BTW - I asked "what about Bali" to stress the point that
>this is a war of cultures. It is not just political
>oppression that motivates these terrorists. This is a
>religious war, first and foremost.

I think it's most likely both. Nevertheless, it's a culture you know very little about. Most of the victims were Australian. Australian Prime Minister John Howard, was among one of the first to support Bushes campaign against terror after 911 and Australian Special Forces fought along side American troops inside Afghanistan against Al-Quida.

Instead of freedom from the Shah's death squads who removed people in the middle of the night and murdered and tortured them to death and the Shah's imposition of Martial Law, how did the Iranians get worse with the Ayatollah Khomeini?

What difference does it make that Bali is predominantly Hindu? It still represents an economic target of the west and the vacationers who spend money there represent the financial elite that is associated with capitalism.

The Terrorists don't care about capitilism. They aren't socialists, they are capitilists themselves.

During a stroll on the Washington mall I encountered an Iranian display where they showed the torture devices the Shah's police used, they also pointed out that they were being used by the militants who replaced the Shah.

Old devil is dead!
Long live the new Devil!

The only thing that counts is that I keep breathing and they keep dying.

Under Construction

>In Iran, it was not enough to get rid of the Shah (a
>monster). The Islamic agenda went way beyond that. Instead
>of freedom from oppression, the Iranians got the Ayatollah
>Khomeini.

Because of the machinery of theocracy that Khomeini placed in Iran I agree that democracy can't develop but its current elections are at least fair. Iran's president Khatami won by a fair election with a far greater majority than Bush got in the so-called fair election in the US and yet it is Khatami who is told he does not live in a democracy.

Hmmm...Was former President Carter there to tell us the elections were fair?

Boy, now this feels like home!!

Isn't this exactly what the bible has prophesized? What has the Quran prophesized lately or for that matter ever?

Now we're having fun!

PS
Why would the oil companies want their oil buried under a nuclear waste land?

Johnny


Obama: “On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him to give me space,”
Obama: “This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."

Regardless of all the differences in religious ferver expressed on all different side in the above posts...

One thing is becoming more and more obvious..The terrorist attacks that continue around the world will fast erase any hesitency by those nations reluctant to join with us.

Lay off the ad hominems for a little while, would you Casca? Making wild speculations about what might happen is pretty pointless.

First off, I wonder if you or freespirit could provide me with statistics stating that the majority, or even a large percentage, of Muslim people support terroism.
In case you missed it, a panel of prominent Muslim scholars, whom, I might add, contains some of the leading authorities in the Muslim world, issued a fatwa shortly after 9/11 denouncing the terrorist attacks and declaring that it is the duty of Muslims to help stop terrorism.

Well that's it. Problem solved. Nothing more to worry about. We can all go home to our children and sleep soundly.

In the morning, we can spend a few hours examining Arab demographics

If, however, somebody blows up the neighborhood or covers it with anthrax spores, then we can all blame corporate America and the US Government for it

Will Hal be holidaying in Bali next summer - or in, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Algeria, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, even Saudi Arabia?

They've got some beautiful beaches there, it's just that there are people on them who'd like to kill us - every last one of us!!!!!

Most everyone knows of the awful happenings in the past, from Ghengis Khan, to the Roman Empire, the Wars of the Crusades, through the First World War, the Nazis, Korea, Vietnam and on to the Israeli occupation and oppression of Arab lands and people.

What happened in that past can't however be undone and indeed much of history does explain why current world events are taking their seemingly inevitable course, but nothing determines that we should not protect ourselves in the face of indiscriminate barbarism and bloody murder in the here and now.

Nuclear weapons have enforced a peace between the so-called world super powers for more than half a century, but at least one particular member of the international community could well bring that to an end - if the terrorists don't strike first.

Mitch

Ukmitch,

"...but at least one particular member of the international community could well bring that to an end - if the terrorists don't strike first..."

I guess you gotta ask yourself why Thatcher didn't feel that way, when in the 1990's Saddam was the great friend and ally of both Bush and Thatcher who gave him biological weapons and the means to create nuclear weapons.

And if you were to ask the families of the 200,000 East Timorese your country contributed to slaughtering in the middle 1970's, I'd say they wouldn't be too concerned for your welfare and if your so concerned for your welfare, why don't you ask your government why it's the second largest arms distributor to foreign countries in the world to recipients with ghastly Human Rights records.

>Ukmitch,
>
>"...but at least one particular member of the international
>community could well bring that to an end - if the
>terrorists don't strike first..."
>
>I guess you gotta ask yourself why Thatcher didn't feel that
>way, when in the 1990's Saddam was the great friend and ally
>of both Bush and Thatcher who gave him biological weapons
>and the means to create nuclear weapons.

I think we, the UK, the USA, inter alia, have got the Sadaam whom we so richly deserve But now he's a timebomb waiting to explode, on his own people, on the whole of the Middle West and on the Western world generally.
>
>And if you were to ask the families of the 200,000 East
>Timorese your country contributed to slaughtering in the
>middle 1970's, I'd say they wouldn't be too concerned for
>your welfare and if your so concerned for your welfare, why
>don't you ask your government why it's the second largest
>arms distributor to foreign countries in the world to
>recipients with ghastly Human Rights records.

There's not much point in me asking my government anything, because here we enjoy life under a sham deomocracy, where public opinion is simply made up by the government as it it goes along - whichever party is in power. (read 1984!)

As for our record in the international arms trade, it is of course an open market, but I am personally ashamed of what our, supposedly regulated, arms exporters so often do.

I wouldn't have thought, however, that our Human Rights record during the last 50 or 60 years was too bad, by world standards. Hundreds of thousands of economic migrants and foreign asylum seekers seem to like it here. In fact they're fighting daily to get in through the Channel Tunnel which links France to England!!

Mitch

Ukmitch,

>I think we, the UK, the USA, inter alia, have got the
>Sadaam whom we so richly deserve But now he's a timebomb
>waiting to explode, on his own people, on the whole of the
>Middle West and on the Western world generally.

Iraq is a Third World country with nothing but obsolete Soviet weapons and a devestated economy from 10 years of sanctions. The only people who will suffer are the Iraqis. Saddam has paid people to impersonate him. He'll be on-the-run just like Osama and we will divide the spoils of the whole country to the oil companies. We will assume the responsibility for all the dead, maimed and impoverished Iraqis who pay the price for Saddam's foolishness.

>There's not much point in me asking my government
>anything, because here we enjoy life under a sham
>deomocracy, where public opinion is simply made up by the
>government as it it goes along - whichever party is in
>power. (read 1984!)

I have read 1984...many times! Do you recall the phrase, "War is Peace?"


>I wouldn't have thought, however, that our Human Rights
>record during the last 50 or 60 years was too bad, by world
>standards. Hundreds of thousands of economic migrants and
>foreign asylum seekers seem to like it here. In fact they're
>fighting daily to get in through the Channel Tunnel which
>links France to England!!

I'm speaking of the Human Rights record of those with whom your country sells arms to.

I have always had an affinity for England! After all, Voltaire took refuge there to escape from the French

In reply:

1)Yes! "Newspeak" interests me much more. It's the unofficial language of our bureaucrats and politicians and to think that Orwell came up with the idea all those years ago.

2)I understand what you meant. Just trying to mitigate a little. No excuses, though.

3)At least Voltaire was a "legal" immigrant

Mitch

>1)Yes! "Newspeak" interests me much more. It's the
>unofficial language of our bureaucrats and politicians and
>to think that Orwell came up with the idea all those years
>ago.

Newspeak Translator: http://www.theabsolute.net/sware/#newspeak


George Orwell's 1984 on line: http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/

See ya around Ukmitch. Btw, world news coverage from the BBC, the Guardian and others in the UK is far more accurate and reliable than anything the US has to offer.

>Iraq is a Third World country with nothing but obsolete
>Soviet weapons and a devestated economy from 10 years of
>sanctions. The only people who will suffer are the Iraqis.
>Saddam has paid people to impersonate him. He'll be
>on-the-run just like Osama and we will divide the spoils of
>the whole country to the oil companies. We will assume the
>responsibility for all the dead, maimed and impoverished
>Iraqis who pay the price for Saddam's foolishness.


Glad to know you have access to military intelligence on the state of the Iraqi military. Your sources don't agree with any that I have seen. As for Saddam on the run, it's difficult to impossible to be the leader of the Arab world (Saddam's ambition) from hiding. It would help if you would bother to research his psyche instead of making assumptions about what he will do or how he thinks.

Not speculation, any "religion" that actively encourages their young people to committ suicide to commit terror in the name of a God that is supposed to be all merciful and get paid for doing so is rather bizarre, not to mention pityful.

If you bother to get a short wave, learn a few Arabic languages and spend some time listening you will quickly find you are ignorant on this subject. The air waves are filled with Muslim hate, there are no moderates taking to air.

Oh, there is that small matter of Solomon Rusdie, explain that?

Given my past association with the Alphabet Soup Company, I know many analyst studying the material, so like it or not it is coming. The number of Muslims on the war drums is not limited to the middle east or did they move Bali? YEa, and the Phillipines is just an island off the Arabian coast.

Wake up and listen to what they are saying?

Bunch of neebobs made the same noises before WWII, Desert Storm.

IF the clerics tell them to hate they hate without question and remember their religous police execute people without trial. The offical governments all the religous police to crush homosexuals by toppling walls on them.

You can talk to an individual, but "people are dumb, panicky and dangerous", we are talking Muslim mobs not some poor soul who doesn't even know why he is being told that his Infidel neighbor is a demon.

Under Construction

Casca,

The violent attacks against abortion clinics in the United States is being incited by leaders of the Religious Right who are clearly advocating illegal acts in order to stop what they term baby killing. The Religious Right justifies these actions by claiming they must obey God's laws, rather than man's. Convinced by the leadership of the Religious Right that abortion is murder and must be stopped, their followers are encouraged to use any means, including physical force if necessary, to stop abortion and other sins.

You may want to consider that the same "Muslim mobs" with their irrational logic to kill, murder and maim are manifest in the US in the form of the Religious Right Fundamentalist. The kind of irrational and mechanical justification for murder is not confined to Muslims in the Middle East and the Religious Right in the US murders its own people.

And it seems Indonesia....

You cannot win this point, the dully elected Federal Authorities will kill any and all living matter that violate laws passed by the elected representatives (who happen to be lawyers in desperate need of money to be reelected long enough to get a pension that provide more a year than a average joe makes). And our Federal police mow them down where ever they stand, burrow in and in some case hide. We slaughter Christians like they were vermin, we baked about 23 unarmed children hiding in a bunker because of the ATF's desire for TV coverage. Our dully elected Federal Police will do the same to anyone, anything. Not because they are black, female, male, adnaseum, but because no one or one thing is bigger than the Federal Hive.

The Muslims are doing nothing of any value. The Clerics are not issuing any death decrees, ala Rusdie, for these brutal acts. There is no jawjacking or action on them actively demonstrating their distance from the use of violence in the name of God.

WE in America are atleast allowing those against acting against Saddam to speak, but that conversation an't happen in Baghadad.

The Muslim Hive sees reality from the same perspective, but as the supreme arbitrator with little or no input from common people or elected governments the "book know all, sees all". So find/replace Federal with Muslim and delete all freedoms, tell all the women to back up 800 years, stop all elections, establish a religous police, kill all homosexuals, etc, etc, etc.

Persecute all non-muslims as they are infidels and deserving of it. Anyone running is an infidel, anyone standing still is a well disciplined infidel. "How can you do that?" What? "Blow up women and children? You just don't use that much explosive!

For God's sake man, they strap bombs to their children and have them commit suicide, then dance like a drunken hunter around a campfire with a dee head on one hand while firing wildy into the air. The parents have to center on their religion, if their mind starts questioning the morality of killing in the name of god just imagine the horror they would feel? They actively took part in promoting a (insert word of choice religion, cult, government, whackos) system to have children kill themselves.

Argue all day long, people are dying, killing, hating over the God of Abraham who does not want anyone to be killed for any thing, reason, word, nada, nothing nohow. I know, I know personally that God is the most merciful and is saddened by all this, all because of his gift of "free will". God probably feels bad about letting us have it and all the pain that goes with it, look what we done with it, focusing on the human and not technical and yeah no eco nonsense, I'm talking peaceful coexsistence.

I wonder how God's other petrie dishes are working out? Fungus? Mold? Dang, humans again, better scratch this one cause we know the other anit working.

Under Construction

Casca,

Try and get this clear in your thinking: there's no ONE Islam but a plurality of Islams reflecting a plurality of religious and political agendas. Not all Arab traditions are Islamic and Islam does not UNIFY all Arabs. Your use of the word, "Clerics" is meaningless and your lack of knowledge about the complex nature of Muslims and Islam diminishes any credibility you may hope to possess in discussions of this kind. Very few Muslims are militant.

Thus far, we in America are permitted to speak freely about the truth amongst ourselves or "playfully" through alternative web sites, books and music. In that context the truth is diluted by derogatory labels as when Ari Fleischer said Cynthia Mckinney was a member of "the grassy knoll society" because she told the truth about Bush--as if one is in touch with reality because they believe in the single bullet theory. Everyone knows--no one takes "those people" seriously; even though many counter culture conspiracy books become best sellers.

The powerful platforms of communication like television and newspapers necessary to educate the masses, are corporate owned, corporate controlled and corporate censored and it is corporations that shape government policies. So as long as people believe what they're told by the corporate controlled media, even those that speak the truth in alternative books, music or web sites, speak the truth to deaf ears. The truth is allowed as long as it has been neutralized with lunatic labels making it impotent and if the truth's potency survives beyond these boundaries it becomes--as Orwell says--a revolutionary act.

So in a dictatorship you achieve tyranny by physical force which may be coupled with the opium of theocratic rule. In a corporate controlled (so-called) democracy you achieve tyranny with mind control coupled with the opium of the worship of things. Corporate names have become icons and places like Mcdonalds and shopping malls have become familiar shrines and temples where consuming is an act of worship. Either way, the masses will defend their oppressor with the same blank stare--whether it be induced by cash, credit or a holy mosque.

Whether one murders for religion or the preservation of the controlling elite, both are senseless and meaningless and neither act has value. The common people you refer to have no viable input into the machinery of government and the so-called elected officials are chosen from a small elite group whose allegiance is to the largest campaign contributor belonging to the wealthy ruling class.

And so you have the freedom to roam the grounds and no one really worries about you because they know that you have embraced the truth--you have seen the light. You've been told what the truth IS and believe it and you've been told that those who whisper or claim they know the real truth are crazy. And if they're crazy, they can't possibly see the truth because they're not in their right minds. And so of course it seems more sane to you that one would commit an act of controlled murder for the state instead of gleefully killing for Allah because you see, your sanity has been redefined.

casca - look at the web bots post.

Hey Hal,Just courious:What kind of car do you drive and what do you or did you do for a living?


"The road to hell is paved with good intentions": }>

81 Newbee

>Hey Hal,Just courious:What kind of car do you drive and what
>do you or did you do for a living?
>
>
..................................................................

He doesn't and doesn't. Hal is a Computer. All his posts are Software Programs. }> }>

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

when are you getting the rest of the truck?

That's currently being sorted out by The Department of the Interior. Doc and I will let you know.

Well-placed humor, like well-placed water, extinguishes some flames...

Thank you, Ropera,

paladin1