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jazz4freeFri May-22-09 09:50 AM
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"Enhanced interrogation...?"


  

          

Cheney, the CIA and Torture: Asking the Wrong Question

Eric L. Lewis

Former Vice President Cheney has masterfully shifted the debate about torture from the realm of law and ethics to that of pure efficacy. Liberal columnist Richard Cohen "has to wonder if what he is saying now is the truth -- i.e., torture works." The famously secretive Cheney is now clamoring for the release of CIA memos that he contends shows that torture led to disclosures that he is "absolutely convinced... saved thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives." And so the Washington press pack heads off in hot pursuit of the elusive memos from the CIA, which will no doubt surface eventually.

It would not be surprising that, "having taken the gloves off" seven years ago, the CIA would have a memo in its files claiming that what it was doing actually worked. Washington is famous for bureaucrats larding the file with memos to superiors lauding the effectiveness of pet projects. Would the famously obliging George Tenet really have sent a memo to the eager Vice President telling him that after waterboarding two detainees 266 times -- including waterboarding Abu Zubaydeh 83 times in one month alone -- that waterboarding was totally useless? Abu Zubaydeh's original interrogators maintain that all of the useful information obtained came through traditional rapport building measures and that the information flow stopped once waterboarding started. No doubt, there is a counter-bureaucratic narrative. Cheney wants to take what is a stark legal and moral issue and turn it into yet another Washington "some argue this; some argue that" controversy. It is a clever bureaucratic maneuver, but it fundamentally distracts from serious debate about torture.

Let us assume that sometimes torture sometimes is effective. Let us also ignore the question of whether it is more effective than other techniques. Virtually all of the empirical evidence shows that torture is usually ineffective and is almost invariably less effective than other methods of interrogation. Also, tortured confessions frequently generate massive amounts of false information, leading to endless and costly false leads, and in turn, to a round robin of further interrogations of those wrongly identified.

But it is wrong to engage in the discussion whether torture is effective policy. The absolute prohibition on torture is not based on a consensus that it never works. Rather, it is based on the sad realization that the impulse to torture is ever-present; that human beings who are frightened or zealous or full of rage -- as human beings invariably are -- will feel a powerful need to torture and a powerful justification for acting on that need. It is useful to recall the understandable fear and anger after September 11 not to justify or excuse torture, but to understand that it is precisely at the moment of most stress that the norm against torture must be powerfully affirmed.

From the thumbscrew to the rack to the boring insects to the electrode to the waterboard, amazing human ingenuity and energy have been devoted to inflicting pain. Torture remains a constant across time and across culture. Equally universal is the human ability to wrap sadism in an overarching moral narrative. Torturers never assert that they take satisfaction in domination; that imposing cruelty assuages their anger; or that inflicting pain satisfies righteous anger against guilty outsiders. Torture is always presented as a sad necessity to a greater good. To recognize the power and ubiquity of the urge to torture is not to say that the articulated threats are not real. But history shows that torture always seems to be the solution and a solution imposed with increasing cruelty and frequency as panic and frustration increases. Can it really be the case that when Khalid Sheikh Muhammad was waterboarded for the tenth, hundredth, or hundred eighty eighth time that the interrogators or Vice President Cheney honestly believed they would obtain a better result that time than all the times before? And when Secretary Rumsfeld established a protocol at GTMO where hundreds of people, now acknowledged to have nothing to do with terrorism and no actionable intelligence, were all subject to sleep deprivation, extremes of hot and cold, stress positions, and unmuzzled dogs, could he have truly believed that there were hundreds of people who knew about future September 11ths, all of whom needed to be tortured?

There is an absolute prohibition on torture not because the impulse is alien to human nature but because it is so deeply familiar. When torture does not work, the urge is to turn up the voltage and to widen the dragnet. We do not allow torture in the ticking time bomb scenario because when the would-be torturer looks out on the landscape, he sees it littered with ticking time bombs and people who might know something about them. We do not balance the costs and benefits to see if torture works because there will always be some argument that can be made that it works or it might work or people believed at the time that it would. By refocusing on whether torture worked, Vice President Cheney wants to deflect attention from the fact that civilized legal systems make torture criminal precisely because we are ever tempted that it might work.

  

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mauriceFri May-22-09 11:07 AM
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#1. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 0)
Fri May-22-09 11:08 AM by maurice

          

True point.
Now if this reasoning was generally adopted for its merits,
would we still be "stimulating" the economy worldwide by favouring those few who brought it down in the first place by their "human" greed ?
Because it works ?




Maurice

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 12:30 AM
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#2. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 0)


          

Enhanced interrogation... Most of the comments on this site have been based on what other countries see in us when torture or Enhanced interrogation is used to gain information. Well that’s bunk. And it may hurt your feelings to even consider it. But allow me this. Honestly put yourself in this scenario and see if your feelings about enhanced interrogation changes. And I hope each one of you can choose a person ya dearly LOVE.

Male or Female : Choose a person dearly loved by you whether it be: Mother, Father, Wife, Husband, Son or daughter. (Note; If ya can't honestly say ya love any of these then choose something ya do besides yourself.)

You are the person in charge here, the person or thing you chose has been abducted. They are being held somewhere only known to 2 people. One has your loved one. and the other you have in custody. Time is running out for you to find your loved one. All other means have been exhausted. You are faced with getting this information and it's eating your insides your trying so hard. What are ya going to do??

Well I am here to tell ya. You are going to exhaust all the means at your disposal to get the needed information short of killing the SOB involved. Cause you know killing him/her will not get you an answer. Don't tell me ya wouldn’t, cause your only lying to yourself. You won't listen to me, care what I have to say or what repercussions come your way as long as you get results.

Now lets say this person gives you information. You go there and find nothing. Now what. Well I would think ya go back and just try that much harder to get the info. Now the SOB knows your going to check and when you come back and start on him again he will know what to expect from you if he/she lies again. Now there is a small percentage of individuals who you can do anything too and they are just so bull-headed, stupid, or just don't care what you do to them. (Old saying "Don't wrestle with a pig, cause ya both get dirty and the pig loves it.)

After putting yourself in this situation, use a friend, or fellow soldier. Maybe not to the same degree but speaking for myself only, the above rules apply all the same. And for me that evolves most humans and some members of this forum. The others as I have been told before by members of this forum " if ya don't like it ya can just go somewhere else."

I won't sit here and describe what I would or wouldn’t use. But I'm pretty sure it would be classified as more than " Enhanced interrogation.."



  

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ablibSat May-23-09 12:38 AM
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#3. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 2)
Sat May-23-09 12:40 AM by ablib

  

          

Quote:
They are being held somewhere only known to 2 people. One has your loved one. and the other you have in custody. Time is running out for you to find your loved one. All other means have been exhausted. You are faced with getting this information and it's eating your insides your trying so hard. What are ya going to do??



I would put someone else in charge. Take myself out of the equation. I would obviously be a mess and would not be able to think clearly or objectively. If I didn't do this, I would do something irrational like torture the perp and get whatever blurts out of his mouth through the pain...or worse, kill the perp before I find anything out.

This is why doctors don't treat their loved ones.

Visit the Basement

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 12:44 AM
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#4. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to ablib (Reply # 3)


          

Then you a hypocrite. I told you tou are in charge. Don't change the rules to suit yourself. Think man your daufghters life is on the line. (An example only) But the hypocrite comment stands

  

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jazz4freeSat May-23-09 12:46 AM
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#5. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 2)


  

          

Quote:
There is an absolute prohibition on torture not because the impulse is alien to human nature but because it is so deeply familiar.


But your imaginative little scenario is a pretty good outline for an episode of 24. Very creative...

Punch it up a bit and ship it off to Hollywood.

Ya never know...

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 12:59 AM
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#6. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 5)


          

See another Hypocrite. Don't love anubody enough to say how you really react except for yourself. Always want to chane that which you have no control over. The stage was set. Hypocrite.

  

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ablibSat May-23-09 01:06 AM
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#7. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 6)


  

          

Hypocrite how? I already told you what would happen if I was in charge. And why it would be unacceptable for me to be in charge.

Visit the Basement

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 01:08 AM
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#8. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to ablib (Reply # 7)


          

Then your loved one dies, there be the hypocrite. Not enough intestinal fortitude to put it on the line for your loved one. Taking the life before yours is free is the cowards or pussy way out.

  

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ablibSat May-23-09 01:53 AM
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#12. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 8)
Sat May-23-09 01:57 AM by ablib

  

          

.

Visit the Basement

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 06:03 AM
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#13. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to ablib (Reply # 12)


          

Yep as usual you said a lot with that last post. Nothing....

  

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ablibSat May-23-09 12:17 PM
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#18. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 13)
Sat May-23-09 12:20 PM by ablib

  

          

Quote:
Yep as usual you said a lot with that last post. Nothing....




No, I'm just done with this ridiculous, worn out, piss poor argument, that you think supports your position.

It would be at least half-interesting to have this conversation with someone who knew what they were talking about.

But this? Sorry. You failed again, sir

Visit the Basement

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 06:45 PM
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#19. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to ablib (Reply # 18)


          

as usual there is no sense talking to either of you too. You gotta have it your way. Cause you always think you are right. This issue did not start with Cheney. It's been around a lot longer. Only now the media has imbedded themselves and seem to get overly envolved.

You seem to think I and Cheney and our group condone hazing or torture. You are so far from truth it's not funny. I don't think pulling your finger nails or making you eat someone genitals (but that does sound like a fetish Jazz employes he seems to dwell on the subject) or bashing someone head in is an answer.

This was nothing more than an exercise to show you that there are and can be things that would make enhanced Inteeogation a possible solution. And airing that in the media saying what you will or won't do makes the interrogation process so much harder. Cause when the extent is reached those being interrogated will just know that we reached our limit and only the same will continue.

Solving NOTHING.

  

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jazz4freeSat May-23-09 01:11 AM
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#9. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 6)
Sat May-23-09 01:30 AM by jazz4free

  

          

My goodness!

OK. Were I the protagonist in your outtake on the ticking atom bomb in a suitcase planted somewhere in Manhattan, I would first rip out the bum's fingernails one by one then drive a hot needle into his eyeballs while squeezing his other set in a vise.

Then I'd cut out his entrails with a dull knife and slowly feed them to him.

And if I ran out of ideas, I'd dial up Dick Cheney for pointers.

Happy now?


  

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Ed W.Sat May-23-09 01:50 AM
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#11. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 9)


          

Quote:
And if I ran out of ideas, I'd dial up Dick Cheney for pointers.


Nice to see that you are seeing the light.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 06:06 AM
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#14. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 9)


          

No body tols or asked you to discribe your fantasy's of what you would like to but what you need to do to save your family. Being Pig-headed as you usal are when you think you are right. Get over your self and see.

  

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jazz4freeSat May-23-09 08:43 AM
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#17. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 14)


  

          

I trust you are more articulate in your first language than you are in this one, because I detect a slight glimmer of intellect beneath the manic gibberish.

Only slight, mind you.

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 06:48 PM
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#20. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 17)
Sat May-23-09 07:11 PM by RETSFCL

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
I trust you are more articulate in your first language than you are in this one, because I detect a slight glimmer of intellect beneath the manic gibberish.


And you are a horses ASS. Can't add too so you knock the format of the message. Figures

I am getting better at the true dialog of this forum. Which seems to be call everybody else names. I'll get better as time goes by. You all been doing it longer.

  

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jazz4freeSat May-23-09 07:06 PM
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#21. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 20)


  

          

A pig-headed, hypocritical horse's ass, thank you very much.

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 07:12 PM
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#22. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 21)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
A pig-headed, hypocritical horse's ass, thank you very much.

I stand corrected and I agree.

  

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jazz4freeSat May-23-09 07:21 PM
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#23. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 22)


  

          

You don't stand corrected, you poor devil, and of course you agree -- that's how you've been describing me, and others, throughout this thread.

You should look up the word confused, and fit it into the conversation the next time you visit your doctor.

  

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Ed W.Sat May-23-09 08:12 PM
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#24. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 23)


          

James, please grow up, address the subject and not the poster. You just continue to show what a failure you are and that you are incapable of holding an intelligent conversation.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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ablibSat May-23-09 08:18 PM
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#25. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 24)


  

          

Quote:
intelligent conversation


Where? Not in this thread.

Visit the Basement

  

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Ed W.Sat May-23-09 08:22 PM
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#27. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to ablib (Reply # 25)


          

For you, 11694 posts have failed at that. Stick to the topic please.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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ablibSat May-23-09 08:32 PM
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#28. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 27)


  

          

Well if that's what you think, then that's cool.


Personally, I think the intelligent part of this conversation went out the window in post #4.

However, if you think this fits your level of mental capacity, then by all means, carry on.

Visit the Basement

  

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mauriceSat May-23-09 01:13 AM
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#10. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 6)


          

WTF are you trying with your posts - Enhanced interrogation maybe ?
It seems you have your judgements ready-to-jump.

Meanwhile you completely bypass the point of the topic-starter:
individual (human) reactions and reflexes/propulsions should never become (a model/excuse for) institutional or governmental treatment of or behaviour towards its civilians, respectively for armies towards their POW's.


Maurice

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 06:16 AM
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#15. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to maurice (Reply # 10)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
WTF are you trying with your posts - Enhanced interrogation maybe ?
It seems you have your judgements ready-to-jump.

Meanwhile you completely bypass the point of the topic-starter:
individual (human) reactions and reflexes/propulsions should never become (a model/excuse for) institutional or governmental treatment of or behaviour towards its civilians, respectively for armies towards their POW's.
Maurice


Idiot with a capital I. WTF is that the answer to all your posts. Are ya old enough to use such language. I get sick and tired of everybody making this to suit your needs. IT"S NOT ABOUT YOU.

I'm not saying or using torture. You inflict them words. I'm talking about you using that force (whatever it is ) to get the job done. Which is saving the life of your loved one. Nothing more. Period.

And ya all want to make something its not because ya can't or don't want to admit there just might be a time and a place for enhanced interrogation. Not torture your words not mine. And that is the exact same thing Cheney said in his speech.

  

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jazz4freeSat May-23-09 08:25 AM
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#16. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 15)


  

          

There's a time and a place for all things.

However, manipulative megalomaniacs like Richard Cheney use society's desperate tools of last resort (ie: war, torture, suppression of the most basic and vital human rights and freedoms) the way those of us who don't practice sociopath behavior use a flyswatter -- without consideration and as a convenient means to an end.

And, in my opinion, it's a goddamn shame that that fear-mongering purring demon with the indelible contemptuous smirk has so easily convinced some of you to his ultimately self-immolating cause.

He, and his like-minded ilk (and most appreciative and receptive audience) at The American Enterprise Institute, encourage fear and division as a means to conquer. It's the oldest bloody trick in the book.

It saddens me to say this, but I think that that some of you, when in future singing along to your national anthem, simply out of honesty and decency, should remain mute when it arrives at the last five words.

And tag along with Cheney and his narcissist crowd of self-satisfied customers, and you'll soon have no choice but to scratch the five words (eliminate the conjunction) that precede them.

  

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ShellySat May-23-09 08:19 PM
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#26. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 16)


  

          

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/vp/30894398#30877373

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/vp/30894398#30894398

Shelly

  

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jazz4freeSat May-23-09 08:55 PM
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#29. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 26)


  

          

Thank you.

Cheney belongs in lock down at Leavenworth.

  

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RETSFCLSat May-23-09 09:18 PM
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#30. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Shelly (Reply # 26)


          

yep Obermann's comments hold water. Take them to the bank.

  

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JohnnyRebSat May-23-09 09:39 PM
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#31. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 2)


  

          

Didn't I read a year or so back that your son had recently enlisted?

I hope you are so glib when he is tortured. Hey - it could have given the other side information...

You are an ass. I stop short of saying that I hope your son gets tortured, but that is apparently something YOU condone...

  

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Ed W.Sat May-23-09 11:10 PM
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#32. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 31)


          

Quote:
You are an ass. I stop short of saying that I hope your son gets tortured, but that is apparently something YOU condone...


Statements like that make it lucky for the US that you are no longer a part of us.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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jazz4freeSat May-23-09 11:54 PM
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#33. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 32)
Sun May-24-09 12:12 AM by jazz4free

  

          

At me:

Quote:
James, please grow up, address the subject and not the poster. You just continue to show what a failure you are and that you are incapable of holding an intelligent conversation.


At Whipper:
Quote:
For you, 11694 posts have failed at that. (intelligence) Stick to the topic please.


At JohnnyReb:
Quote:
Statements like that make it lucky for the US that you are no longer a part of us


This the sum total of what you have contributed to this thread. Help us out. Just where in this outburst of gratuitous vitriol did you speak to the topic?




  

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Ed W.Sun May-24-09 01:13 AM
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#40. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 33)


          

They were replies to what you posted, if you stayed on topic they could be about that. Simple isn't it?

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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jazz4freeSun May-24-09 01:37 PM
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#50. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 40)


  

          

Quote:
There is an absolute prohibition on torture not because the impulse is alien to human nature but because it is so deeply familiar.


This was the gist of the topic introduced in the original post, which, in a later post, I deliberately emphasized. I addressed it throughout.

I got off topic only when I responded to being called a pig-headed hypocrite by someone who had hijacked the thread with his introduction of a facile and hackneyed "strawman" scenario, which he insultingly insisted everyone speak to.

You then ceased biting your "tongue until it bleeds" as, at an earlier time, you pointed out to us you had been doing, and seized the opportunity to chime in and describe me as a childish failure. I can only suppose that's because you feel the drunken bum stuff has gotten old.

I don't know what demon possesses you that you feel you must lie in the weeds biting your tongue until it bleeds. Is it in an effort not to contribute constructively to the discussion here? Or perhaps that is not your reason, and you bite your tongue until it bleeds because you suppress a pathological urge to personally slander this particular member whom you detest.

Haven't you any bigger battles to fight? Because I know I do.

For my part, I've long considered this little feud between us to have been over. If you wish to continue it, and to play the self-righteous "Carry Nation" reformist role on this board, give your poor bitten tongue a break and have at it.

Whatever -- you, Edward, will get no further rise out of me. No matter how often you attempt or how much you tempt.


  

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Ed W.Sun May-24-09 03:13 PM
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#51. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 50)


          

Quote:
I got off topic only when I responded to being called a pig-headed hypocrite by someone who had hijacked the thread with his introduction of a facile and hackneyed "strawman" scenario, which he insultingly insisted everyone speak to.


Stop hijacking all threads as you normally do and maybe they will. But, just ignore them if that bothers you and the fault then is theirs.

Quote:
You then ceased biting your "tongue until it bleeds" as, at an earlier time, you pointed out to us you had been doing, and seized the opportunity to chime in and describe me as a childish failure. I can only suppose that's because you feel the drunken bum stuff has gotten old.


I address each of your failures as they appear at the time. You made the topic you as you attacked the poster.

Quote:
I don't know what demon possesses you that you feel you must lie in the weeds biting your tongue until it bleeds. Is it in an effort not to contribute constructively to the discussion here? Or perhaps that is not your reason, and you bite your tongue until it bleeds because you suppress a pathological urge to personally slander this particular member whom you detest.


It is an effort to get the worst offender on the forum to admit his failings, but mean it for once. You attack everyone for doing exactly what you have done here for five years non stop. Sit back and analyze your history, self proclaimed intellectual (only in your mind) repeatedly driven into us, and yet proven false almost every day. You have driven the Forum down to about 5 posters that daily banter with you over simplistic things. Five years of your pathological hatred and ramblings about Bush and Cheney has wore everyone out. It is impossible to keep the Forum going unless it is renamed the "Anti Bush and Cheney Forum". As long as you keep destroying it, you will be met head on.

Quote:
Haven't you any bigger battles to fight? Because I know I do.


Of course, but they require divine intervention and are being handled rather well by myself and not whining to the Forum.

Quote:
For my part, I've long considered this little feud between us to have been over. If you wish to continue it, and to play the self-righteous "Carry Nation" reformist role on this board, give your poor bitten tongue a break and have at it.


Thank you for your permission, I don't need it to think for myself, as you so fondly try to shove things down our throat daily, with your copy and paste that us that can read, do so on our own. You don't discuss, you force your opinion and attack everyone that doesn't agree with you. Intelligent people don't do that.

Quote:
Whatever -- you, Edward, will get no further rise out of me. No matter how often you attempt or how much you tempt.


Yes James, you have promised this so many times it is a broken record. But take it a step further and do the same every time you feel the need to insult the poster. Simple isn't it? Yet you even failed at this every time.

Have a nice day.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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ablibSun May-24-09 03:20 PM
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#52. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 51)


  

          

Cut and pasted EdGreene style. Nice!

Visit the Basement

  

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RETSFCLSun May-24-09 03:33 PM
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#53. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to ablib (Reply # 52)
Sun May-24-09 03:34 PM by RETSFCL

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Cut and pasted EdGreene style. Nice!


Meaningless, childlike comments from the master of them ABLIB.

  

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Ed W.Sun May-24-09 04:00 PM
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#55. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to ablib (Reply # 52)


          

Self answered by you, I feel sorry for your supposed daughter.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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jbmcmillanSun May-24-09 03:51 PM
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#54. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 51)


          

On that vein I guess you would have to plead guilty to "bringing down the forum" as well.You have far more mean spirited posts to threads on your little vendetta.This post was mean spirited but not quite so nasty.I'm not picking on you but the hypocrisy.James is not guilt free but hardly any one reason for any perceived decline in this forum.

  

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Ed W.Sun May-24-09 04:07 PM
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#56. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jbmcmillan (Reply # 54)


          

Minutely. Sadly all posters must suffer if anyone tries to address this. It would be an ideal solution if EVERYONE would just address the topic and not the poster. As long as there is favoritism to a few posters to ruin the forum, it is going down it appears. You admonish only those that disagree with you and it is a private forum.

Most of the posters are not like that fortunately.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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jbmcmillanSun May-24-09 07:05 PM
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#59. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 56)


          

See it can be done disagree without calling anyone a name.I don't admonish just people that disagree with me just those that I think are being hypocritical in their calling someone out on the very thing they are doing.You are entitled to your opinion just like anyone else.Calling people stupid,a drunk,a pos,doesn't further your opinion only detract from it.I see this a lot here and not just from you but from James as well though I suspect in James case as in Adam's case it has a lot to do with wind him up and watch him go.This is the internet and it doesn't really matter what people think of you and getting upset and name calling is pretty juvenile.In the end it's just what I think and I don't think everyone should agree with me nor do I care.

  

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RETSFCLSun May-24-09 07:43 PM
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#60. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jbmcmillan (Reply # 59)


          

I agree. And I have fallen into the name calling . Not my norm but it sure gets tiring receiving and not giving.

My typing ain't the greatest as I am still a 2 finger hunt and peck typist. Hit a lot of wrong keys, misspell a lot of words. But face to face I'll stand toe to toe with any of you.

Some would never have the guts to do that though because they only act big and tough on the internet because they'll never have to have that face to face confrontation.

I make comments to a lot of folks on here. Shelly is a big one. He pisses me off so bad sometimes because he is just a so locked Dem that no other thought can get through to him. Other than that though Ilike the guy. He's helped me out and I have learned from him. But I will not roll over for anybody. If I got something to say I'll say it. I used to try and say that without hurting others feeling in the process. This forum has changed that, because I see it happening too much. My dad would say don't stoop to their level but I'm afraid thats what I did. Sorry it's a PCQ&A thing i guess.

  

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Ed W.Sun May-24-09 08:35 PM
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#61. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jbmcmillan (Reply # 59)


          

Yes, you can disagree with a responsible and reasonable person, but not with someone that thinks they are always right. I try to stay out of it now until they start their usual name calling and then oblige them if necessary.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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jazz4freeSun May-24-09 10:10 PM
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#62. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Ed W. (Reply # 61)
Sun May-24-09 11:45 PM by jazz4free

  

          

I know I'm contradicting myself doing this, but I just have to congratulate you.

Your presumption and arrogance are nothing less than spectacular.

I'm left breathless. I've been done by a professional, and need a smoke.

  

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RETSFCLMon May-25-09 01:01 PM
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#63. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 62)


          

Quote:
QUOTE:
I know I'm contradicting myself doing this, but I just have to congratulate you.


Quote:
Whatever -- you, Edward, will get no further rise out of me. No matter how often you attempt or how much you tempt.



I quess the above statement is what you are referring to.
We won't hold it against you, you done same thing in past.

  

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jazz4freeMon May-25-09 01:19 PM
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#64. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 63)


  

          

I'm grateful.

  

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RETSFCLSun May-24-09 12:07 AM
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#34. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 31)
Sun May-24-09 05:18 PM by Shelly

          

what a sick F*** you are


MY SONS ARE ALL SAFE. THEY KNOW HOW TO HANDLE THEMSELVES AND THE LIKES OF YOU.

YOU ARE IN YOUR COMMENTS AND IN LIFE NOTHING BUT A WASTE OF HUMAN SKIN.

  

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ablibSun May-24-09 12:30 AM
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#35. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 34)


  

          

Quote:
I DO NOT CONDONE TORTURE.



Oh, well then, we're all mistaken.


What side of the fence are you on then? What do you condone?

Visit the Basement

  

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RETSFCLSun May-24-09 12:41 AM
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#36. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to ablib (Reply # 35)
Sun May-24-09 12:43 AM by RETSFCL

          

Read back. See that part of your problem. You only read what parts you want in a post. I'm not gonna sit here talk over what I do or don't condone with you cause your mind is closed and have fallen into "let somebody else do it cause I'm a brownie and not man enough to handle on my own".

I sure hope you don't ever tell your daughter that you will not come to her aid cause you'll get somebody else do it for you. I hope it's not me because I would set her streight after we rescued her.

  

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ablibSun May-24-09 12:46 AM
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#37. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 36)
Sun May-24-09 12:49 AM by ablib

  

          

See! There I go again thinking I was talking to an adult.

My apologies.




Quote:
I DO NOT CONDONE TORTURE.



Well, then don't get pissed off if people think you do. Your posts and overall reading comprehension come across as a 3rd grade reading level.

Visit the Basement

  

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RETSFCLSun May-24-09 12:51 AM
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#38. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to ablib (Reply # 37)


          

I don't care how it reads. Evidently above your skills cause you are leaving some out and not following the guide lines set forth. You close your mind once someone says something you don't agree with anf read no further.

  

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ablibSun May-24-09 01:01 AM
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#39. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 38)
Sun May-24-09 01:01 AM by ablib

  

          

Quote:
You close your mind once someone says something you don't agree with anf read no further.



If you're talking about your posts, if I wanted to interact with a 3rd grader, I'd be a 3rd grade teacher.


Since that's not my cup of tea, I'd rather not waste my time indulging in RETS' simpleton, Hollywood view of foreign policy.

Visit the Basement

  

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Kiwi2022Sun May-24-09 01:55 AM
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#41. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 34)
Sun May-24-09 05:22 PM by Shelly

  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Didn't I read a year or so back that your son had recently enlisted?

I hope you are so glib when he is tortured. Hey - it could have given the other side information...

You are an ass. I stop short of saying that I hope your son gets tortured, but that is apparently something YOU condone...


Quote:
QUOTE:
what a sick F*** you are
I told you dumb ass I DO NOT CONDONE TORTURE.
MY SONS ARE ALL SAFE. THEY KNOW HOW TO HANDLE THEMSELVES AND THE LIKES OF YOU.

YOU ARE IN YOUR COMMENTS AND IN LIFE NOTHING BUT A WASTE OF HUMAN SKIN.


Wow! Those are some harsh words being thrown around. You should be very ashamed of yourselves!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



"A woman's heart is an ocean of secrets."
Rose Dawson; from the movie "Titanic"

  

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Dave101Sun May-24-09 02:24 AM
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#42. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Kiwi2022 (Reply # 41)


  

          

Quote:
Wow! Those are some harsh words being thrown around. You should be very ashamed of yourselves!


Ditto. I don't know if they're all drunk are stoned but this is got to be one of the worst threads I ever read.

P.S. Glad you got out of your cuffs to put an end to this useless babbling.

Dave101

"The only goddamn thing you know about the law is how to break it." Chief Lafleche

  

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RETSFCLSun May-24-09 02:55 AM
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#43. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Kiwi2022 (Reply # 41)


          

Sorry, but I can't tolerate the comments he made. He just lucky I have'nt the power to see mine through. Cause if I did they would have been done right after I typed them.
That was just a very sick thing to say.

And to boot that was almost 3 years since my son was over there. Shows how his mind is set.

Funny how ticked some got when threats were made before. This was a sick sadistic wishfull kinda threat.

  

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JohnnyRebSun May-24-09 12:19 PM
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#48. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to RETSFCL (Reply # 43)


  

          

*sigh*

It was not a threat. The point was that I would NOT wish torture on someone's sons (or daughters), but that you apparently DO. I was, perhaps clumsily, trying to point out the strange fact that someone with children in the military apparently condones methods which can be construed to be torture, when these methods can be used on their own children as well...

But what do I know? I am just a "waste of human skin..."

  

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Ed W.Sun May-24-09 12:27 PM
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#49. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 48)


          

Quote:
But what do I know? I am just a "waste of human skin..."


Amen to that.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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RETSFCLSun May-24-09 04:11 PM
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#57. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 48)


          

Quote:
Correct me My point was that I do not wish torture on his sons, but he apparently has no problem wishing it on others' sons.


No where in my posting does it say anywhere I condone torture. Maybe just ignorant of the word usage. Have you seen anything on the (mainly) 6 items that are covered in the enhanced interrogation methods that were supposedly authorized by Bush for the CIA??? If not go back and look at ALL of them. One was the "water boarding ", that is the one everyone knows the most of.

Quote:
*sigh*

It was not a threat. The point was that I would NOT wish torture on someone's sons (or daughters), but that you apparently DO. I was, perhaps clumsily, trying to point out the strange fact that someone with children in the military apparently condones methods which can be construed to be torture, when these methods can be used on their own children as well...


Again Like Ablib I think you are stopping short of reading through each post because your mind is already made up. Open your mind and actually put yourself (only you) in the scenario. I have no doubt (even you) would come to use something’s you would normally never use. No doubt.. Even YOU.(provided of-course you actually loved the person in harms way.
Watch the way you use the word "construed". Because in torture there is none. It either is or isn't. IMPO "water boarding" comes close. Why do I say comes close, because of all the 6 usually mentioned it is the shortest. 15 Seconds is shortest time to just over 4 minutes for the almost brain dead retards who think they are able to withstand anything. The scary feeling that it gives one drives on in that short time to wish they were dead. Most will do or say anything to not have it repeated. And yes I said anything. If this style is used on the lower ranking know nothing personnel, the information you gather will be just that, nothing.

  

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peterbSun May-24-09 03:00 AM
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#44. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Kiwi2022 (Reply # 41)


          

I read through this thread and understand your response. No pun intended but actually reading some of the dissent amongst members was torture in itself. I know that I don't post much but this thread is indeed sad.

  

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GroganSun May-24-09 06:35 AM
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#45. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to JohnnyReb (Reply # 31)


  

          

Quote:
QUOTE:
Didn't I read a year or so back that your son had recently enlisted?

I hope you are so glib when he is tortured. Hey - it could have given the other side information...

You are an ass. I stop short of saying that I hope your son gets tortured, but that is apparently something YOU condone...


That is such a stupid thing to say, to a father with sons in the military, that it competes for this year's Darwin Award.

I won't stop short of saying that I wish you were at arm's length from him when you said that.

Grogan

  

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Ed W.Sun May-24-09 08:30 AM
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#46. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 45)


          

Quote:
That is such a stupid thing to say, to a father with sons in the military, that it competes for this year's Darwin Award.

I won't stop short of saying that I wish you were at arm's length from him when you said that.


Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

  

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JohnnyRebSun May-24-09 12:11 PM
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#47. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to Grogan (Reply # 45)


  

          

Correct me if my English usage is incorrect, but I am pretty sure that when one says "I stop short of..." it means that they will NOT do it. My point was that I do not wish torture on his sons, but he apparently has no problem wishing it on others' sons.

I stand by my statement. Any father with children in the military should have a heightened respect for the terrible thing which is torture, or enhanced interrogation, or whatever new euphemism people decide to mint next.

He claims to be against torture, but as Adam pointed out, he comes out pretty damned strongly for it in this thread. My post was merely pointing out that the sword cuts both ways.

  

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RETSFCLSun May-24-09 04:26 PM
Member since Jul 24th 2003
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#58. "RE: Enhanced interrogation...?"
In response to jazz4free (Reply # 0)
Sun May-24-09 06:15 PM by RETSFCL

          

I don't know how or why you think I highjacked this thread. It's about torture and so are my comments and scenario.

The scenario was only given to try and get you to put yourself into a position where you might have to use it. But because you have closed your minds like so many do lately You and others attack me and say I condone Torture. LOOK BACK...... And I repeat NO WHERE, NO WHERE, NO WHERE does it say I condone TORTURE.

  

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