Check it out.

Damn...he sure has a way with words, and I agree with him totally.

Hell, lets just nuke the both of them...Hollywood and Iraq...Hollywood for being traitors and Iraq people for being to scared to overthrow or off Sadaam. The world is such a simple place when you don't have to think of the consequences.

I thought that the USA was supposed to believe in free speech!

Thank you, Noreen!

sophie

They can speak all they want. But when trips are made to the enemy's country as some kind of war protest, I consider that a traitor. It is no longer freedom of speach. I would like to see Sean Penn...I'd like to spit in his face and bust him in the eye. I place him in the "Hanoi Jane" catagory...T.R.A.I.T.O.R

If the day ever comes when a citizen can not hold a contrary political belief in this country, and peacefully act in support of that opinion, the country would no longer be worth defending or supporting. And no one who would stifle the free expression of ideas in a free society is worthy of being a citizen. That is not what I and millions of other Americans risked our lives for.

Shelly

You're a good man Shelly.

Shelley you said it much better than my attempt.

I'd still like to bust Sean Penn in the eye

Come on over Darren, he lives just about a mile away from me, I'll point out his house for ya...

Reckon how close I'd get before he runs and hides behind his mamma's skirt?

>Come on over Darren, he lives just about a mile away from
>me, I'll point out his house for ya...

So, if people (Americans) went over to Germany during World War II and set themselves up as human shields around munitions factories, you wouldn't see a problem with that? Hmmmmmm? I believe they would have been shot for treason when or if they had returned to our soil.

Johnny


Obama: “On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him to give me space,”
Obama: “This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."

Very intelligent response! First you set up a strawman with a hypothetical situation that never existed, and then try to make a point with it whose only purpose is to cast doubt on our constitutional assured rights. Send me your next rewrite of history, sometimes I forget to buy toilet paper.

Shelly

LOL!

(Strawman)
"A candidate definition or statement presented to invite discussion, attack and modification."

Well, they got the "attack" part right.

I believe the point I was trying to make was that the people over in Iraq will not be set-up by Iraqies as shields for babyfood factories. If war is declare, there will be little time for them to clear out. And us being the big softies that we are, will probably get good men killed trying to protect them. I believe it is wrong of them to put their fellow Americans at risk saving their butts. Shelly and Hal, I don't know if you have military age sons or daughters, but I don't want my son getting hurt or worse sneaking in and pulling these jerks out of harms way!

Johnny


Obama: “On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him to give me space,”
Obama: “This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."

That wasn't the thrust of your analogy with Germany--treason was. You posted, "I believe they would have been shot for treason when or if they had returned to our soil."

I'm sick and tired of this blanket of intimidation being spread over people who oppose war. I'm sick of this, "you're either with us or you're against us and a traitor" mentality. That mind set is the furthest thing from the spirit of a republic. You need to educate yourself Johnny, I know you mean well, and I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you don't understand the true meaning of a democracy.

I understand it well enough to put my life on the line for five years so that people like you can enjoy it. Not just talk about it or complain about it, but defend it. As I stated, these buttwipes will cause us to lose good people, and for this they should be punished. As for right now, I have no problem with them expressing their views, as I said, I joined up to protect this right. But the minute the fir starts to fly and they are standing on foreign soil, (Iraq) they should be charged with aiding and abetting the enemy.

Johnny


Obama: “On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him to give me space,”
Obama: “This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."

You haven't done shit for me other than brag about how you gave me my freedom and attack me and others for exercising the very freedom you claimed to have provided.

I try really hard during these little chats to reframe personal attacks. I just give my point of view and pointed out my willingness to serve my country to maintain our freedoms, that's OUR freedoms. Brag about it? Well, yea, I am proud of my time I spent in the service. Please read post #36. Pretty much sums up my point of view. Later!

Johnny


Obama: “On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him to give me space,”
Obama: “This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."

Don't let Hal9000 get under your skin because you have done something he will never do, actually defended your country...

PWRGURU

>They can speak all they want. But when trips are made to the
>enemy's country as some kind of war protest, I consider that
>a traitor. It is no longer freedom of speach. I would like
>to see Sean Penn...I'd like to spit in his face and bust him
>in the eye. I place him in the "Hanoi Jane"
>catagory...T.R.A.I.T.O.R

"Traitors" to the US Constitution come in all colors.
As in your case, it is "traitorous" to the Constitution to deny others' their right to act and speak as they see fit.
Your preemptory denial of Penn's freedoms also and vicariously impinge on my own, if I so choose not to go along with this rush to war.
I'll say it again: we can kick Saddam's butt any day of the week.

This rush to battle by a draft dodging, National Guard hiding rich boy is still pissing me off. And so is the gratuitous casting of asperisons on other's patriotism by slimy people like you.

Ed
I get it done with YAHOO-DSL!

"gratuitous casting of asperisons on other's patriotism"

You mean like some shell shocked alleged war vet questioning everyone elses patriotism because they didn't serve the exact same way?

National Guardsmen are draft dodgers now?

--------------
History teaches us that history has taught us nothing.

Mr. Green
I was simply stating my opinion. I did not attack you personally.
How in hell can you call me a slime? You don't even know me, asshole.

>This rush to battle by a draft dodging, National Guard
>hiding rich boy is still pissing me off. And so is the
>gratuitous casting of asperisons on other's patriotism by
>slimy people like you.
>
>Ed
>I get it on with SEAN-PENN!
>

I guess you have not read the new Home Defense Act, just like england we have certain words, phrases and topics that can get you detained in seconds. Say the wrong thing and next thing you know you get the men in blue at your door.

Free speech in America is dying and on life support. It's only a matter of time till someone trips over the chord and free speech dies.

Under Construction

Casca, You say "just like england". That is not actually so, I don't think that anyone has been arrested here for saying the "wrong" thing. A few Muslim clerics have been arrested for encouraging their followers to kill people of other faiths which is of course a criminal offence. We are free to disagree with our Government in public and private which (at the moment) most of us do!

Everyone in America has a right to free speech and the last i checked we were not at war with anyone...I served in the military and was in Desert Storm but not on the front line...I, to this day, would still give up my life it it helps to defend our way of life and most of the people i know in the military feel the same way..People like Sean Penn's 15 minutes of fame are over but he still has a right to voice what he feels...When and if the U.S. ever goes to war that changes...In a time of war you stand behind your country no matter what because if not then i feel you are a traitor...If you do not like the country you live in, then move and see how long it takes you before you come back...I have traveled the world and seen alot of countries that hate America but given the chance they would give up everything to go there...America may not be perfect but it is still th BEST DAMN PLACE ON THIS EARTH to live...

PWRGURU

You better re-read the Constitution pal! There's no buts: Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech, war or no war.

It does not need to be as it is common sense...Love your country and stand with her thru the good and bad or get out as we have no need for you...Do you really think that Mr. Penn would ever help to defend the country that gives him such rights...I do not agree with war and i never will but i love America and will do whatever it takes to perserve our way of life...It is so easy to sit on the sidelines and judge what other people are doing...I do not know all the facts and neither do you about this problem...All i am saying is no matter what happens, everyone loses...War is a rich man's game and a poor man's fight...

PWRGURU

Apparently not for you.

Say what ever you like but you can thank the stars that there are people big enough to join the military to defend what they believe in so people like you can sit behind your computer and complain...What have you ever done for your country my friend except talk bad about it..

PWRGURU

So by exercising my right to critical thinking and by dissenting, you're now questioning my patriotism. Maybe you should provide me with a list of what you think are the proper qualifications for patriotism and we'll see if I meet them, or do I have just have to be a war veteran.

Being truly free is having the right to dissent with your own government without the fear of being accused of being unpatriotic or being told you are anti-American. Who needs the secret police when people like you do the reprisal job for them?

"Of course the people don't want war ... But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger. It works the same way in any country."

--Hermann Goering, Nazi Propagandist

Still dancing around the question because you have never done anything for your country and everyone in this forum knows that

PWRGURU

You're a coward because you know you're wrong and won't admit it. So instead you denounce me for my lack of patriotism and ask me to prove it--that's what they did in Nazi Germany.

Still can't answer the question because you have no answer do you ??? Thats o.k, because in America even you have a purpose in our society

PWRGURU

Yes, and tonight I informed someone less fortunate than I about the content and meaning of the Constitution and The Declaration of Independence, thereby fulfilling my patriotic duty for the evening.

And what, pray tell, have you done for your country this fine evening, other than attack a fellow citizen for taking the time to teach you what it truly means to be an American.

I taught some fool that he is not an american and shall never be one...

PWRGURU

Shame on you. One day you may really regret having said that. Dissent was also unpopular during the Vietnam War, but later voiced by a majority of Americans. If we fail to dissent for fear of governmental retaliation, or because of people like you, we will have confirmed the truth of Hermann Goering’s prediction. You're doing a fine job in helping to make that prediction come to life.

I shall never regret the love i feel for MY COUNTRY...It seems that you are stuck on Germany just a little too much...I have seen you rip into people for their beliefs in this forum many times but it seems that you do not like it when someone questions your beliefs...Action speaks louder then words and someday the yellow streak may fade from your back but i do doubt it

PWRGURU

These aren't MY beliefs, they're the beliefs of the framers of the Constitution, remember those people? You're so blinded by your jingoistic fervor, your overactive adrenal glands don't even know what they're fighting for.

So now I'm a yellow belly huh? LOL! Ooohhh. Did you think I might go and hide in the corner, in the dark, in shame. LOL! What will you call me next? I know, a COMMIE...

You gotta love it!

It was a yellow streak down your back..And i am not sure, are you a Commie???I thought that you would but up a good fight but all you are is a bitter person that always has to get his way...If you ever served in the Military you would understand what it means to LOVE your country and to DEFEND her against all enemies, foreign or domestic...

PWRGURU

I'm not bitter son, I'm laughing my ass off. You know, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Iraqis because inside every Iraqi there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads in case another peace type thing comes along.

This horse has been beat to death my friend so i shall let it die peacefully.. I look forward to more heated debates with you on a multitude of subjects as you are a worthy adversary....

PWRGURU

Thank you sir, I hope there are no hard feelings. I always look forward to these...little talks.

Peace Brother.

PATRIOT: One who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests...Merriam Webster

>So by exercising my right to critical thinking and by
>dissenting, you're now questioning my patriotism. Maybe you
>should provide me with a list of what you think are the
>proper qualifications for patriotism and we'll see if I meet
>them, or do I have just have to be a war veteran.

Oh, I'm sorry, didn't you know, Merriam Webster didn't write the Constitution. LOL!!

...And neither did you. LMAO!

>Oh, I'm sorry, didn't you know, Merriam Webster didn't write
>the Constitution. LOL!!

Maniacally no doubt. LOL!

You said:

"In a time of war you stand behind your country no matter what because if not then i feel you are a traitor."

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Declaration of Independence as originally written by Thomas Jefferson, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315

In order to exercise that right, critical thinking and open dissent must be encouraged so people can discuss and evaluate, at all times, the actions of their government!

The key word was "I" in that statement as is my right to feel that way...

PWRGURU

LOL! So you want to exercise your right to FREE SPEECH to speak about depriving others of that right!

I seem to remember saying that it was not a war yet...Also i never said anyone should lose their right to free speech...I, key word here, feel that when and if war ever happens that the act of speaking out about your country and it policies could be seen as helping the enemy...You can twist it how ever you like but the fact remains the same, WHAT HAVE YOU EVER DONE FOR YOUR COUNTRY BESIDES BITCH ABOUT IT ??? Let me guess, your a lover not a fighter

PWRGURU

"Also i never said anyone should lose their right to free speech..."

You said:

"In a time of war you stand behind your country no matter what because if not then i feel you are a traitor.

So whoever exercises the rights outlined in The Declaration of Independence you feel is a traitor. Can you say, Fascism.

"...I, key word here, feel that when and if war ever happens that the act of speaking out about your country and it policies could be seen as helping the enemy...

Helping the enemy is the same as being a traitor.

I think my teaching my fellow American citizen about their own Constitution qualifies as being patriotic, don't you?

Thank you in advance.

"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our
countrymen." --Samuel Adams

Johnny


Obama: “On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this can be solved, but it’s important for him to give me space,”
Obama: “This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility."

Oh yes, that great fireball from Massachusetts. Samuel Adams was a falling down drunk who eventually died from cirrhosis of the liver. You can take that quote, flip it over and hang it on your bathroom mirror. Because that sizes you up, not those who have the courage to dissent and oppose a pre-emptive strike masquerading under the scandalous guise of a so-called war.

This isn't a war! It's a pre-emptive strike! Don't you get that? Has war been declared? Nevertheless, the First Amendment guarantees open and vocal opposition to this so-called war.

All the Hollywood "stars" would all run to Canada if they were ever called upon to serve their country. They wouldn't want to get their pretty little finger nails dirty. Or mess up their hair that they don't even comb themselves. They all live in a fantasy world. Give them a chance in the real world, and they will fail. It don't matter anyway. All this whining and protesting won't change a thing. I don't see any "give-a-damn" in President Bush's eyes.

"The charge of "anti-Americanism" is itself profoundly anti-American. If the US does not stand for freedom of thought and speech, for diversity and dissent, then we have been deceived as to the nature of the national project. Were the founding fathers to congregate today to discuss the principles enshrined in their declaration of independence, they would be denounced as "anti-American" and investigated as potential terrorists. Anti-American means today precisely what un-American meant in the 1950s. It is an instrument of dismissal, a means of excluding your critics from rational discourse.

Democracy is sustained not by public trust but by public scepticism. Unless we are prepared to question, to expose, to challenge and to dissent, we conspire in the demise of the system for which our governments are supposed to be fighting. The true defenders of America are those who are now being told that they are anti-American."

- George Monbiot, The Guardian (10/16/01)

In the immortal words of the great EDGreen, "I wish I'd said that."
Nice post Mr. Man.

Section 3
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Hey Hal,How about a reply to my Message #47???????????

81 Newbee

link isn't working, never mind

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

Hey Hal,How about taking a little time off from defending my rights to free speech and sign up to fight cancer in the UD forum.While you and I may not see eye to eye often we could probably agree that a WAR against cancer is one we both could support.What say you??

81 Newbee

No, I think it's "War is Peace."

"I do not compute"Can you clarify your reply?Thanks

81 Newbee