a valuable PC911 team member is leaving. why? because some people just can't behave. i don't blame grogan. the amount of shit he and many other moderators had to take over the years is mind-boggling, especially considering the fact it comes in return for spending countless hours of free personal time over a period of 4 or 5 years lending ones expertise to help others.

as shelly said, we're pretty thick-skinned, and you have to be that way. but we do have our limits. al described it properly when he said that for grogan the heap of BS that has accumulated over the years has grown too big.

but i'm not gonna repeat myself. i've said this before and i'll say it again. below is a message i posted sometime last year. i suggest you read it very carefully, because it holds true now more than ever, and i am dead serious about it.

====>>>>>


i am purposely ignoring these threads. i have no interest in flame wars, i have no time to engage in pointless no-win arguments about who's right and what's better, i have no patience for playing the peace maker, i have no nerve for weeding through every thread and post trying to decide which one should stay and which one should go.

it is my opinion that all these negative threads are a complete waste of time and energy and i will not partake in them in any form. i am honestly surprised how many people have the time and energy to keep up these hostilities, and am even more surprised how many people take some perverse pleasure in spreading negativity, fighting wars, insulting others, etc.

yes, i am saddened to see some of the insults and stupidities recently exchanged here. but neither i nor anybody else can teach common sense and intelligence and respect and humility and tolerance to those individuals who don't have it. that was their parents job who obviously failed at it. nor will i start censoring posts with an iron fist, taking away the freedom of speech, playing dictator and deciding which posts are or are not worthy of being on display here. this is a free community where everybody can state their opinion as long as it's done in a civil manner.

as you might have noticed i do post when i find the time (which is not as often as i wish), but only constructive answers to serious questions. that's what i enjoy, and that's the purpose of this site.

i also take care of a lot of the background work on this site that most people don't even think about, e.g. the web hosting, maintaining the web server, all the html work, editing of articles and reviews, trying to keep the advertising revenue up, organizing the donations deal, communicating with other webmasters, trying to get products from vendors for review, promoting our site, and much more. this costs me maybe not always 5 hours every day, but it is essentially a second job i'm working, in addition to my full-time day job as a sys admin for a software company here in silicon valley.

i'm proud of this site. i'm proud of the team that has joined me and helped to make the site what it is today. i'im proud of the awesome community that has developed here over the years. i don't regret a single one of the countless hours i've put in over the last two and a half years. i will continue to invest my time and energy into the site because i enjoy it and i hope that my work helps people get more out of their computer and have a happy computing experience.

if people want this site and our help, then it will be evident by the communications on this forum because that's how we know our audience and communicate with them. as long as the main focus of the forum is about requests for computer help this site will continue to exist. as seen in the past, troublemakers and brain amputees usually have the attention span of a 2 year old and leave us. i believe that this trend will continue and that our mission and our community is strong enough to laugh those idiots out the door.

but if i see evidence that nobody wants our help, that this is becoming a burden, or an excercise in futility, or turns into a war field, or any other sign that we can't have fun anymore maintaining this site and helping people, then i will pull the plug - plain and simple. i have lots of other things i could do with the extra 20 hours every week, e.g. spend more time with my wife, get 8 hours of sleep instead of 5, study to advance my career, take a vacation, spend time with friends, etc.

long story short: i will continue to "do my thing" and watch what happens. i'm not making the decisions, our audience does, cause that's who the site is for. if they want us, we will provide it. if they don't want us or abuse and insult us, we will move on.

it is completely up to you.

Second.

Kirkland

thanks for being here CG, and thanks for some clarity.

scott

Still Crunching To Crush Cancer




Somebody, Stop Me!

Thanks Ale

Thanks for the reminder, Alex. It makes me sad that you should even have to lay it on the line like that.

I hope people will realize what a loss it is to the forum to lose Grogan, and think about what it would be like to lose PC911 altogether. When the moderators and the owner of the site have to regularly question whether or not to continue, we're in deep trouble.

I hope I don't sound like an egotistical jerk for saying this, but I hold my tongue here quite a lot. I do it out of respect for Alex and the forum, but also (this is the jerk part) to try and set an example. I try to be patient with those who know less than me, attentive to those who know more, and to ignore the people I think are idiots, of which there are few. I don't go looking for trouble, but if it finds me I try to meet it's pressure, equalize it, and not pound it into a grease spot.

I think what I'm trying to say is that it's not that hard. Most of the above goes against my basic nature, but I've learned to modify that nature here at the forum, and it's made me a better person, I think. Maybe some people should give it a try ... really, it's not that hard.

All I gotta say is : Thanks...to the IDIOTS which made this happen!!
And they know who they are. You need to get down off your high horse.
I think Grogran is a super guru as well as witty.
Please don't go because of some damn fool idiots...
And Alex, thanks for your time and effort with PC911. The mods here are pros and very polite. Alot of people can learn here!!
You are 'ALL' appreciated here, even when I don't know what the heck you're talking about... lol (computer talk that is).

Gravity....not just a good idea, it's the law!
My Magic

Good message. It is sad that something like this has to happen.

What a shame that Grogan has decided to leave. It will be a big loss. Everyone appreciates the time and effort that you moderators put in and value your assistance. It is a REAL shame that the same people who complain about 'abrupt' answers are usually the first to personally ask for said moderators when a real problem arises. Yeh Grogan can be blunt but he also knows more shit than I'll ever learn! Shame it's come to this

Cheers Alex


Steve J....

'Wasps play no part in the ecosystem'


Athlon 1100Mhz, Windows ME, 512MB SDRAM

'Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity'

System Specs

  

"All I gotta say is : Thanks...to the IDIOTS which made this happen!!
And they know who they are"

Andrew, IMHO, I don't think they do.

Norm

Norm

Bob, I agree with what you write. I see some who use this forum who will not tolerate debate without resorting to nastiness, namecalling and general juvenile behaviour. It is almost like a Stalinist party line which must be agreed to, or the detractors are flamed. People are not allowed free expression without these neo-stalinist basically saying saying 'our way is always the right way, so you must be wrong, end of argument'. Surely we can differ without recourse to bitterness. I've held my tongue on several occasions because I know that I'll be crossing the party line. Why should I feel so inhibited, and even intimidated? I disagreed with someone (a moderator) on another thread, but only did so because I know he is always civil and acts like an adult. It is wrong that I should have to take that into consideration before posting.

Let's not forget Scotterpops. One of oldest family members and sorely missed. He simply got fed up.

Thanks for the reminder Alex, like most others I really appreciate this great site. I try to visit at least once daily - as a lurker mostly.

Sorry you are leaving Grogan, perhaps you could sneek a peek occasionally.

I like BobG, Andrini and Sonny's replies above. Very sensible and well put.

Thanks again Alex for the opportunity to visit and learn, regards, Derek.

that Kafka is dead.

I thought this day might start out to be a good day,then I come to what I consider my home,only to find another of the family is leaving.This saddens me very deeply,and there is nothing I would like to see more than for ALL the family to stay or return.

Alex, I know how all of this must make you feel,work as hard as ALL of you do, to provide FREE information and assistance to those of us that need it,only to find a lot of the posts that turn into what we all know ruins a good thing.

I doubt if many notice, but I post here with questions a lot,and answers when I can.However, I rarely if ever, post to any thread I see that has any type of nonsense that leads to what,ruining the forum?

I hope the people that are responsible for having caused this incident,and others that have done similar things in the past,will wake up and realize what we might lose everything, if any of this crap continues.

To me it's sort of like biting the hand that feeds you,and indeed that is what it is.We all have days when we might like to say things, then later wish we hadn't.I just hope the crap stops,before the walls come tumbling down.

I guess I have said enough,it would be easy to go on and on,but would serve no purpose.I want to thank Alex,and ALL the others who have helped me,and made me feel a part of a wonderful thing.Life is way to short,we should be grateful for what we have,and hope we don't lose more,Tuff

Thanks CG for the msg again! I am behaving meself.... Did I??





Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 1.5Ghz( 1500Mhz ~ 1498Mhz )( 0.18 micron ) / 128MB RDRAM / 40GB HDD / Nivida TNT2 M62 Pro 32MB / Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional

PC Specs in my profile

Why are you called crazygerman?

Guns don't kill people. Husbands who come home early kill people.

He's German. He's crazy. 'Nuff said.

I am truly sorry that Grogan decided to step down & I too will miss his expertise, maybe if one of the mods had taken him aside for quiet word at some point in the past this whole mess could have been avoided, how can we have respect for this forum when ppl can openly behave in an abrasive manner to all & sundry.

I don't see that I am the "idiot" that upset the apple cart I contend that it was caused by a blatant disregard for the forum rules of which we should all be aware. grogan did not simply make the occasional slip, this was his style of communication & it did offend many ppl who bit their tongues rather than stick their necks out like I did the unthinkable & challenge a moderator.

In no way was Grogan forced or strongarmed by myself to quit I simply asked him to amend the way in which he posted as not to offend ppl. as I said in a different thread, If it was your wife or child etc that got told to "stuff you head up..". Would you not have taken umbrage at that & defended that person. I in the same way defended the next person he was going to do that to, I have worked in many labouring type jobs with ppl that wouldn't think twice about knifing you & have seen & heard all that ppl can say or do, I can take that but others should not need to feel belittled or abused simply for posting an opinion.

I totally agree with CG & sincerely hope that PC911 pulls through this crisis & that it is stronger than ever afterwards & that this forum does not follow the falling moral standards that is happening in the world today, naive? maybe but I am allowed to believe that PC911 can be a place to debate without recourse to bad language.

IMHO Grogan was ready to take a break from this & I fully expect him to come back when he is ready. as far as I am concerned I was the catalyst that decided him in his course of action that he had already considered.

In response to some ppl posting I have NEVER put myself forward as some kind of "guru" or replacement for Grogan, no, quite the opposite I have much to learn about PC's before I could even consider myself as being worth 10% of Grogans ability, so maybe it would take 100 of me to replace him, that is not & never was the issue here.

tuff-

wise words, and heartfelt.

Alex, maybe what you need is a Sec of Defense. I don't think you or the other moderators here should have to take on all the responsibilities of making sure the main objective of this forum is met (Friendly Expert Computer Help - In Plain English), plus being babysitters. I've had a sinking feeling in my heart lately because of the fear of losing Shelly for good this time. The same things that made him almost leave a few months ago are cropping up again and might be getting worse. Now Grogan's gone (hopfully for a short vacation) and who knows who's next? Everyone please remember, we are in Alex's house so please act accordingly.


I posted a question of Feb. 11th asking "Where's Shelly". I'm cutting & pasting his response plus the link. Good read for everyone.



Shelly
Charter Member
12555 posts Feb-12-02, 02:31 AM (GMT)

9. "RE: Haven't Seen Shelly Post Lately"
In response to message #0

I'm still alive and well, thanks for your concern.
I have been reading the forum, but not posting. I've been doing a good deal of soul searching the past several days. In all the years that I have participated in PC911, and Winmag before that, for the first tome I started wondering if it was worth the effort anymore.

Let me explain. The character of the forum has changed, we are much better known than in the past, and there are more people who visit here than ever before. I have noticed two changes as a result that are probably inevitable. We are drawing an increasing number of trolls who come here neither seeking nor offering computer help, but only to amuse themselves by trying to stir up trouble. This is and has been eroding the spirit of family and comradery that most of us enjoy about this little corner of the web.

Some of our threads have devolved into snide personal attacks, and attempts to embarrass good people who are here to help others without hoping to profit by it. The most any of us ever hoped for was maybe an occasional "thank you". Many of us are respected professionals who offer freely here what we get paid for in the real world. I used to be the nastiest old reprobate in these parts. No more, I'm being out done. I'm known to be terse, but I have always tried never to be mean spirited.

There are a lot of long time contributors to these proceedings that rarely post or visit anymore. I miss them, but I can't blame them. Last week I came very close to resigning as a moderator and walking away. I do have a life beyond the forum that can keep me occupied.

I have taken part in many long debates over the years with people here that I respected. People like Al, Casca, Scotter, and others, who also could engage in a heated intellectual contest without resorting to personal attacks.

This post is getting far too long, so I'll end it by saying that I have decided to stay around in the hope that I can still contribute something, and that the good people who come here, not just the moderators, will help to keep this the kind of place it always was.

As for me, if you don't like my opinions, the way I write, or how I answer, Just avoid my posts. They're not hard to spot, I sign them big, with the name I've used for two thirds of a century.


Shelly





http://www.pcnineoneone.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=33725&forum=computer

Jeannie

>Everyone please remember, we are in Alex's house so please act accordingly.

Good idea.

Let me start off by saying that the departure of any of the mods would be a blow to the forum. Personally speaking, I feel certian that any one of them have long since forgotten much more than I'll ever know about computers. There are many very knowledgable computer people out there, but how many are willing to give freely of the time necessary to watch over a busy forum.

I too critisized Grogan for his abruptness, fearfull of what a newbie might think. I posted my comments in one thread and then let it go. I honestly hope that my posts weren't one of the "straws that broke the camels back". After thinking about it I realized that although I had registered and was a member of the forum, it's not "my" forum ... it's Alex's ... and he's a nice enough person to allow me to come into "his house" whenever I wish and partake of the goodies here.

I would never go to a friends house and openly question another quests behavior, esp. if the other guest was a long time friend of the host. I'm sorry I did it here.

If her decides to stay away I know he will be sorely missed by his friends here ... and his knowledge missed by all.

J.B

In as much I hate to see Grogan go Lets not be so hasty as to condem or fault Gerba or Hardware Freak for posting or wondering about Rules. THE RULES SHOULD APPLY TO ALL especially the Mods. Imagine a perfect stranger posting something like this.
"Hardware Freek, why don't you go stick your head up your ass and suffocate. I'll respond to posts any way I like."
That person would be out so quickly it would not be funny. It never bothered me when Grogan posted something like that. I have been reading his posts for years and knew his style. But I am not sure how I would feel if that post had been directed at me. I think Grogan NEEDED to move on. His Iritation with the whole thing is quite obvious. I hope after some chill time he returns but I also believe he should follow the rules or not come back.

Thank you for that, unfortunately most ppl don't see this with a voice of reason, I never thought for one minute that a guy like myself could receive so much hate mail in one day!

Instead of puling about the hate mail, I suggest that you stop posting to the threads on this subject. In other words, SHUT UP.

marti

I'd like to forcefully 2nd that!

Norm

Norm

What some fail to understand is that people earn the right to be afforded some latitude. I don't know about you, but I have some old friends who have been there for me when I needed them. They have earned the right to say anything to me. Some have said things that would have surely placed almost anyone else in a hospital bed for a lengthy period. I not only cut them the slack, I listened and sometimes learned from their comments.

The point is, Grogan has been there without reservation for many of you for years. He has been there for me too, as one of the few people I look to when I need help with something. It does not matter if I happen to agree with the way he answers a question, or a challenge. I will support him 100% simply because, in my opinion, he has earned that support in a thousand little ways. What have you done to earn the right to attack my friend? I was in more fights than I care to think about in younger days, and what was true then is true now, you will have to take me out before you can get to my friends.

Shelly

From being a tradesman almost all of my working years (30 or so) the first things any new-hire or apprentice should learn is DON'T piss off the journeymen. Especially the ones that have the knowledge and experience to help you when you need it. It will cost you. Promise.

It works here too.

Nightly Reader

Hardware Freek,

In an earlier post you state that you were the catalyst that caused Grogan's decision, not the entire reason. I'd say that was fairly accurate. Consider that the moderators and a number of other regulars have invested an incredible amount of time and effort into this site. Often help is offered and there is little or no thanks. The lack of recognition is no big deal but it does tend to make folks more sensitive to criticism regarding style (don't look a gift horse in the mouth).

I don't think there is a huge double standard regarding the use of profanity. Alex offered some guidelines and a few "rules" for posts. There are some absolutes; for example, posts regarding software piracy will always get a strong negative reaction or be quickly deleted. A link to a porno site would be quickly deleted, as would believable threats of violence or language that was profoundly obscene. The tough calls are when the language is off color slang that is part of some people's normal speech but unsavory and unpleasant to others. I don't agree with your position on this but I'm not pleased to hear that you're getting hate mail over the issue. I hope that what you're actually receiving are statements of disagreement, not hate.

The reason I don't curse or use a lot of slang when I post has nothing to do with "rules" or my belief that as a moderator I should set a good example. I'm not shocked by most language, I just feel that some words or expressions should be reserved for the most drastic situations. I've also found that fair or not, there are a significant number of people who will be turned off by foul language and will think less of me if I use it. As long as I stick to words that people understand, the ones that curse will not think less of me because I don't. On the other hand, some people who don't curse will look at me negatively if I do. It is just easier to play it safe and keep what I say or type clean unless I know my entire audience very well and the cursing is appropriate for the situation.

Grogan has a different style than I do. I'm not going to try and impose what works for me on Grogan or anyone else. It has been more important to me that the advice he offers here is solid. I've also appreciated that when he does see a mistake he is quick to admit it, placing a higher priority on the correctness of information than on his ego. I'm not joining in the chorus begging him to stay because I believe he will return shortly and operate in a capacity that more suits his style. He likes this place and the people too much to leave for good.

Whoever posted the message as quoted should be bar-ed from this wonderful forum. Suggest the Chief Editor/ Forum Master take NOTE of his ip and bar him/her permently.

I have and still do enjoy this site. It is the best

"troublemakers and brain amputees " you could not have said any better.
David C Abernathy

David C Abernathy

So, true CG.

I think that people forget (or don't care) that you, and the other mods do this out of the goodness of your hearts, and for the pure pleasure of it. If it IS no longer pleasureable...

I for one would be saddened greatly if this site were to close. In such a short time, I have learned so MUCH, and most of it is BECAUSE of the mods, NOT in spite of.

I too had an upleasureable experience here, and as a result, just stay away from those threads. It was sound advice given to me, and I try to stick to it.

Perhaps others can use it as well.

BTW... brain amputee? hehe, too funny.

DATERMINEHTOR

MY HOME PAGE!

GO LEAFS GO!

http://daterminehtor.blogspot.com/

  

Total agreement here. I have learned a lot here in the last year. I don't post all that much because thats what I just said, I'm learning. I haven't seen anything worth noting from the "brain amputee".

Wow, a lot has happened since I was on last. (It wasn't all that long ago either.) I don't know what to say, except that I'm sorry to hear that Grogan is leaving. I certainly had no problems with his "style", in fact, I appreciated his directness. I will also miss having a fellow Linux fan to bother with questions, as I am sure I will have a lot to ask.

I hope that I have not offended anyone with any posts or comments that I have made, as that would never have been my goal. My goal is generally a search for information, or if it is OT, then it is often to get one to thinking, or to add a perspective or point of view which may or may not have been thought of before. I don't enjoy a fight as I'm sure no one does, but a good, civil discussion, and respectful rebuttal of points of view with which we don't entirely, or partially agree. I know that I am not immune to mistakes ( make many), and therefore will not judge others harshly in light of theirs. It is my sincerest hope that no one would feel the need to leave a forum, especially a moderator since this is pretty much his or her "Home" of sorts. Myself, as a guest, am amazed at the collective knowledge that often gathers here. I have often been intimidated by my relavent lack of knowlege... I'm still learning all the time, and probably always will. Often, as is sometimes the case, egos can get in the way of the sight of a topic, or resolution. Sometimes, I'm sure with some people, reluctance to post for fear of it being considered "flame bait" will leave a question unanswered, and perhaps a lesson to learn unfulfilled. I hope not, as I like to learn with the rest of you, and perhaps share my knowledge and experiences as well.

I hope Grogan will reconsider his descision to leave and perhaps just make a vacation out of it instead. As a member, I just got here, and I'm still learning, and getting to know all of you.

Take care & have a good one!
-Brandon

I came to this site from the Win Mag site when it began. Grogan, Alex, Shelly, et al have taught me and many others much. Marti is always here to help. Why anyone would want to flame or otherwise insult either Grogan or any helping hand is beyond me. But then again, I believe in civility.
Let us hope that Grogan returns sometime in the future. Let us equally hope that good manners and civility will will become a permanent part of the site. One can disagree in an agreeable manner.





http://www.bobbalogh.com/

Alex,
Thank you for the reminder.

Grogan,
Why are you making too much fuss about this. The guy did not insult you in any way, did he? He might have critisized your views. Why do you want to leave? Think again please.

hello
i have one question."whats so hard about being civel?"

I agree with your views entirely,plus I would humbly like to point out that joining this forum is by invitation and therefore a privilege,if under this premise you exercise your option to reprimand,or withdraw the membership privilege from any miscreant,I donot think you are being dictatorial.
On the contrary,if you declined to exercise this right due to the generosity of your disposition,then I feel that you will be doing a disservice to the rest of the forum members who consider this forum to be a friendly get togather of people with common interest in computers mainly.
But then being the owner of this site,I guess this is your decision and we have to abide by it if we wish to participate in the forum.

AGB

I think I'm going to take apart my pc today: piece by piece right down to removing the jumpers and lay it all out on a table.

I'll mill over the parts one at a time and think real hard about how it will all fit back together. Since I have never actually built a pc, I predict I will fail, but its worth a shot.

And then if and when it's all back in one piece, I will format it out, and begin the long process of reinstalling all my software.

I had alot of trouble last time I did this so I expect trouble. My video card software doesnt seem to like anything in the tower, but I can wing it.

While Im at it , I will attempt to load a few dozen programs I have never used, and see how things work out. Theres tons of free ones around, I'm sure some of them are useful.

I have been considering going to a new OS anyway, so this may be a good opportunity.


Yes, I do have a point here.

I have been thinking alot about the events of late here in the forum, and bottom line is I need this place.

Without PC911 I may as well just throw this thing in the trash and go back to playstation.

The whole idea of trying to keep this pc running without any help really makes me sad. Not just disappointed, but downright tears in the eyes, lump in the throat sad.

One by one we continue to lose our freinds here, and should this trend continue, PC911 will crumble.

C'mon people, please dont let this happen.


t_bare

t-bare,
this was a very moving post.

You don't want to blame Grogan?

It is your intent to allow moderators acting on your behalf to be abusive, rude & agressive with the intent of humiliating & belittling people? That is so lame & a total cop-out PC911 will in normal peoples eyes be seen as two tier structured forum with two seperate sets of conduct rules. I think you have made a mistake in allowing him that behavior in the first instance as am ambassador for PC911.

I contend that if a "normal" member was to regulary post offensive remarks that he would be censored, silenced or otherwise cautioned, as it is I felt that someone had to have the guts to tackle ppl otherwise seen as cronies & thus untouchable. You yourself know how close Grogan was to quitting & that this was only a straw that broke the camels back, comdemn me if you like vilify me, attack me, hold me in contempt as I hold you.

Allan.

Let it go Hardware Freek.... there are many ways to be more offensive than using 'bad language'. I am a relative newcomer here, and I don't particularly enjoy bad language, but... I have read things here that are a lot more offensive to me than the 'bad words', so to speak.

I am not a 'NooB', and it's been my observation that every forum takes on a 'personality'... primarily determined by the moderators (hopefully), and the things and people they decide to allow... for whatever reasons. My point is.... the folks who start the forum and maintain it with their time and effort GET TO DO THAT, doesn't matter whether you agree or not. I don't believe anyone has a 'God-given' right to come to a forum, post for awhile, and then decide they have 'earned' the right to take on the folks who run the forum. If the moderators, or one moderator for that matter, are posting in any manner not considered suitable by anyone, it's up to the folks who run the forum (Alex and the other moderators in this case) to make that determination. They can change the rules THEY have made, ignore them, or whatever... a forum is not a 'public owned' democracy. There are many forums I don't like, for various reasons, but I can simply not go back... avoid the posts I don't like... or put up with some things to learn something I want to learn, it's my choice.

In other words, the arguments you make for or against certain things that offend you, really aren't pertinent here when it comes to the final analysis. You have appropriated 'rights' for yourself on this forum that simply don't exist. You have a right to make any complaint you wish, the 'powers that be' then have a right to make the determination on it... and that's it. You have no rights on a forum above that. If you don't like the way your complaint goes, simply move on to another forum suitable to you, or.... start your own forum using and enforcing whatever rules you choose. You can enforce your rules of conduct or language in your home... but you don't get to do it in my home. I get to make the rules in my home concerning visitors, and then change them (or break them if I choose). Another way to put it: concerning your 'rights' on this forum... you ain't hardly got any, just depends on what the folks who run it want to put up with from you.

I haven't had a long history concerning Grogan, but I've read a lot of his posts (even his very knowledgeable answer to one of mine), and I've seen his 'style' as it's called, and I can tell you this... anyone who thinks his presence on a tech forum is a liability because of language or manner is a little dim. It's obvious he brings a tremendous amount of knowledge to the table, and knows how to use it for the benefit for other folks who need help, and... after all, that's what it's all about. His departure (not permanent I hope) involves a much greater loss to this forum than anything anyone hopes to gain. It's a shame that anyone offended by him didn't simply ignore his posts rather than make a 'crusade' of it.

Take care... Randell

>Let it go Hardware Freek.... there are many ways to be more
>offensive than using 'bad language'. I am a relative
>newcomer here, and I don't particularly enjoy bad language,
>but... I have read things here that are a lot more offensive
>to me than the 'bad words', so to speak. etc...

>Take care... Randell


Point taken Randall, I'll just need to live with it I reckon, it is all getting a bit tedious & we are no further on than we were earlier. looking at the old boys network I'll just need to look away when I see this stuff happening & hope I don't get embarrassed when it happens to my friends & family that I recommended this place to. I reckon you're correct & it's not my place to look out for others.

>> Point taken Randall, I'll just need to live with it I reckon, it is all getting a bit tedious & we are no further on than we were earlier. looking at the old boys network I'll just need to look away when I see this stuff happening & hope I don't get embarrassed when it happens to my friends & family that I recommended this place to. I reckon you're correct & it's not my place to look out for others <<

Ah well... these things tend to happen occasionally when you get a lot of people involved. Hopefully everyone will learn something from the whole thing and everything will settle down... it really is an excellent tech forum (and I've been a moderator on one). As 'out of hand' as things may seem here at times, it's considerably better than most other forums. Most everyone above an age too young to be here anyway is exposed to all sorts of language almost everywhere (particularly in school), and most learn to ignore or tune-out what they don't agree with. Sad... but a part of life.

Take care... Randell

How magnanimous of you, and humble too!

Randell,
I think your post said what I've been feeling all day. I am just so grateful that I have learned what I have from all the knowledgable moderators and members here. How dare anyone (including me), come to an established forum and think they have the "right" to make "waves" with what has already proven to be the best help around, especially when like myself, they can't/or don't contribute!

Toni

Great post, Randall.

OK -- it's time to jump into this fray! It would seem that some users here are probably not aware of the circumstances that led to the need for more than one moderator here.

>
>It is your intent to allow moderators acting on your behalf
>to be abusive, rude & agressive with the intent of
>humiliating & belittling people? That is so lame & a total
>cop-out PC911 will in normal peoples eyes be seen as two
>tier structured forum with two seperate sets of conduct
>rules. I think you have made a mistake in allowing him that
>behavior in the first instance as am ambassador for PC911.
>
Moderators are not specifically "acting" on anyone's "behalf", nor is any of us an "ambassador for PC911". At a point in the not-too-distant past, there was only one moderator on this board -- Alex Byron -- "crazygerman" -- the head honcho in these parts. Prior to a bad weekend, none of the team members (Al, Grogan, Shelly, SteveYandl Marti, MrMan, or myself) acted in the role of moderator. We contributed where we could, and still do. What happened was that Alex took a well-deserved and much-needed weekend away with his better half, and while he was away, a troll came in and stirred up trouble here. Considering the fact that at any given time, it is highly likely that at least one team member is here, it did not take long to notice what was going on... but there was nothing that we could do other than voice our opposition at that time. Considering the then-prevalent troll-like behavior of several visitors, Alex deemed it sensible to afford moderator status to the full team. He, in his good judgment, allows us the privelege of discretionary action, meaning that each of is allowed to exercise the moderator "powers" as we deem proper for the circumstances.

None of this makes us, as team members or as moderators, "ambassadors for PC911". In fact, if I had to guess, I'd say that the readers who have been helped here since the inception of PC911 are our "ambassadors", as they do more to spread the reputation of this site than we do, I'm sure.

None of us asked to have the status of moderator -- it was a necessity born of the troll invasions to which we have been subjected. In most every case I can remember, it was just such a troll who complained the loudest about the exercising of the moderator's authority, regardless who the "offending" moderator was at the time.

>I contend that if a "normal" member was to regulary post
>offensive remarks that he would be censored, silenced or
>otherwise cautioned, as it is I felt that someone had to
>have the guts to tackle ppl otherwise seen as cronies & thus
>untouchable. You yourself know how close Grogan was to
>quitting & that this was only a straw that broke the camels
>back, comdemn me if you like vilify me, attack me, hold me
>in contempt as I hold you.
>

To date, I have yet to edit, lock, or remove a single post (other than editing my own ), as I am pretty much a "to each his own" kind of guy. To the best of my knowledge, prior to the recent infamous "piracy" thread, SteveYandl has also not seen fit to do so. At the same time, I have never questioned another team member's decision to act, nor will I. No one, however, (myself included) is "untouchable". When anyone, team member or otherwise, posts something that I feel merits a disagreeing response, I do so. Further, I believe that each and every PC911 team member feels the same way, and will act accordingly.

This team is comprised of individuals of diverse backgrounds, attitudes, and knowledge areas and levels. It is self-policing, and I mean that in its purest sense. If a team member here is unsure of how to proceed in a given situation, it is generally discussed and a concensus reached before action is taken -- as it should be. Therefore, if a team member acts unilaterally, it is (to me, at least) an indication that that team member is comfortable in his/her actions.

We are all supposed to be adults here. (Well, maybe not all, as we do have -- and make allowances for -- a good number of younger readers.) Political correctness has done more, IMHO, to delay needed action and to destabilize some otherwise solid organizations. In this day and age we cannot say what we think without fear of hurting someone else's feelings. As a result, very often nothing at all is said, with the resulting loss of needed input. I for one choose to say little or nothing when a topic is controversial, as very often my sentiments are adequately expressed by another, and without the vitriol that I may have injected. That silence, though must not be regarded as agreement with either side in any issue, nor should it be taken as a lack of concern. It is often my way of saving time and preserving (my) sanity.

Occasionally, however, a topic will arise that mandates my input. This is such a topic. It is interesting, to say the least, how often those who complain about the sarcasm, wit, or bluntness of others are also the same individuals who seem to require the most help in solving a problem. I have a huge level of respect for anyone, team member or otherwise, who is able and willing to donate hours of valuable time to this forum, and who consistently offer good advice or suggestions. I have an equal level of contempt for those who never seem to able to contribute meaningfully to the solution of a problem, but are quick to post a reply anyway. Somehow, it seems that this type of poster has historically also been among the first to voice complaints or dissatisfaction.

I too have been posting less than I did at one time. As stated in another thread, some of that is due to my health and the demands of my business. But -- my health is really no different than it has been for the past ten years. My business has grown, true, but I still have the sleepless nights that I've long had. I was once spending most of those sleepless hours here, but, as has already been expressed by Grogan and Shelly, I can find better thing to do with that time than to sit here and deal with some of the current crop of inane postings.

None of us -- team members or other contributing readers -- get paid a penny for our efforts. There are many readers out there who regularly offer excellent advice, and I consider them to be as valuable to this forum as I am. Likewise, I am sure that they too must be feeling a sense of regret about the current state of affairs here. If all of the knowledgeable folks leave... If Alex pulls the plug... will you be able to find another site that offers as much for so little? If so, why are you here instead of there now?

It ain't always what it seems..

-ChrisP

You really should heed Marti's advice HF, just shut the HELL up and let it die the death it deserves!!!

RussH

Thanks for those words Alex.

I don't know why the hell it is that some people get so hung up on trivia (swear words)?
It reminds me of a teacher I had in high school who would happily fail a fine peice of writing because of a couple of spelling mistakes. It is always what is said that counts. Grogan is brilliant and what he says here is, and has been for a long long time of great value to all of us here. As Shelly said, he has earned the right to be himself and use whatever language he likes. He doesn't sugar coat things; he is real.

Mr. Hardware Freak and others like you. Get past the trivia and you may learn something. It is a sad bloody day when we can lose someone like Grogan because of the pathetic sensitivities of people like you who get completely hung up on naughty words. GROW UP!!!

Umm.. hello?

Isnt it this type of mudslinging and personal attacks that got us to losing Grogan in the first place?

Ok folks.

Hardware freek messed up.

Let it go.


At what point do we get back to business here?


t_bare

here here, well said.

Hung up on trivia?(swear words)

I've seen a lot of fist fights started over a little bit of trivia like that.

Forgive me for saying so, but if any of us need to control our tongue(keyboard), then all of us should control our tongue. Moderators and members alike. It has gotten to where it is not friendly expert computer help when the moderators tell a member to put his head up..... and suffocate.

Bill K.

As always seems like I've missed to much in the forums again and something completely stupid happened.

I don't have to time to sit here and read every thread, would be nice, however I have other priorities.

Grogan, I'm sad to see you step down. You're a good friend and some who's advice and criticisms I considered invaluable. I hope you do continue to stick around in the forums if not as a staff member.

I'm always here for ya, cause you always been there for me.
Rob


W@KK0
"Tell me and I forget. Show me and I remember. Involve me and I learn."

"Tell me and I'll forget. Show me and I'll remember. Involve me and I'll learn."

Hard...Freak needs to get a fucking life. This is only an internet forum for christ sake. There are many other things in life a hell of a lot more important we should be worrying about. If you don't like someone's language, click the fucking back button you idiot.

http://cyclingcaptured.com

You go, Tony. Damn.

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned enough in this thread is that the information dispensed by the moderators and knowledgeable contributors is FREE (although contributions for upkeep are accepted; see SUPPORT link on the home page). When I receive needed assistance here, it doesn’t really matter much to me about the language that delivers it, it matters that I receive assistance. I have received tremendous amounts of help here, much of it from grogan. I truly regret his departure and hope that he will return soon. Thank you to all of the people who participate constructively at PC911, especially the moderators who give so much of themselves without remuneration.

edit: to correct direction to SUPPORT link. I just made a modest donation to this forum. I consider it as kind of a subscription fee.

bobbo

Just wanted to repeat what I put in the other post, since we seem to have 2 posts on the same topic:

The man I learned the most about life from wasn't always the nicest person around. I always respected his opinion and never questioned the method in which I recieved what I needed to learn. There were a lot of things said to me that hurt my feelings, but I am the man I am today because of it. That man was my father (R.I.P.).
This whole mess seems to be a customer service issue, and people keep forgetting that we do not pay for anything. It is by invitation that we arrive here, and by desire that we stay. If we want to learn from someone who is always pleasant and nice, we should get off the puter and just watch Mr. Rogers Neighborhood.

If you don't respect an opinion, at least respect the time and work it took to get it.

P.S. Grogan, Fishing is always good for the sole.(lol)

but if i see evidence that nobody wants our help, that this is becoming a burden, or an excercise in futility, or turns into a war field, or any other sign that we can't have fun anymore maintaining this site and helping people, then i will pull the plug - plain and simple.

This, in a nutshell (nuts removed) is what Alex's whole message is about, and why Grogan decided to quit. The whole reason all of us "regulars" are here is because it's fun. When it stops being fun, then there is no reason to continue.

C'mon, why do something you don't enjoy?

Over the years that I have been part of the online world I have seen online Forums and also dial-up BBS's (remember those?) fold because they were no longer fun for people who owned and ran them.

I know Alex, and he is not kidding!

What is your decision?

JP

It's a shame that someone can cause so much upset. I always believe that if I don't like some person's approach I just don't read that person's messages. I miss Scotter, and I'll miss Grogan. Please, people, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything!

Stan

I have only been visiting this forum for a little while, so I don't have much experience of the various individuals who post here. However some things are clear. The manifestation of wisdom in an individual is often expressed as the desire to help others on their individual journey. The free sharing of knowledge that takes place here is a real instance of that help. Lets not worry to much about those that have difficulty in receiving it, they need to relax and be more receptive. It seems that we possess unlimited potential for technical advancement, its just a matter of time, but our ability to live together in peace whether here in this forum or in the wider world is the meaningful issue. We are living right now in the most critical era ever of human existence on this small planet. The probability is that we are about to delete ourselves as a species. It doesn't have to be that way, but it totally depends on how we treat each other here and now. So lets celebrate those here that have found a way to express freely the universal energy as knowledge, and get on with the survival task of expanding our identity to encompass each other and the planet we are a part of, -- Its absolutely critical that we grow up NOW -- for all of us.

emes

Thanks for the advice guys, I am going to let this topic die a rightful death & I will try and let such things pass me by in future, I can't promise I'll let you away with it every time though! }>

It's been tough being the one guy who decided to make a stand but hopefully this will pass away into the distant past & the forum can continue to grow & we can all learn to work together in a closer relationship that this thread has been & do it ih relative harmony. I have nothing against a heated discussion, it's just that I feel it shouldn't be allowed to degenerate into a slanging match as someone is always going to lose.

At this point I forgive anybody that sent some of those e-mails & posts & ask that you all can forgive me for rocking your respective boats, I hope nobody drowned.

Yours Sincerely
Allan.

Your stand was ranked right behind General George Armstrong Custer's, a major failure.

This post and the one in the other thread show you still don't have a clue. You blew it.

Why don't you move on, YOU can't fix something that isn't broken.

Ed W.

Ed W.

"IN GOD WE still TRUST - ALL OTHERS, WE used to MONITOR"

Hardware Freak,

If you were in a burning building, and someone yelled at you: "Get the f*** out, you stupid ass, the f***ing building is burning", I think you would be so busy trying to tell that person "you can't talk to me like that" that you would die in the fire. Your sense of priorities is twisted. You need to go somewhere where people will shoot at you to get a grasp on what is important.

I recommend you make that trip before you come back to PC911.

HF,

While I do think that you might have gone a little too far with Grogan, I feel that some of 'The Moderators' are given too much leeway.

I have been mildly flamed by 'The Moderators' for just posting some minor Microsoft bashing. Also, in the last four months, the amount of my E-Mail SPAM has increased a hundredfold. There is no way I can prove it, but I think one of 'The Regulars' started it because they disagreed with some of my posts.

I also recommended this forum to a couple of friends because another forum declined and I could not answer their questions. They were berated and pretty much lied to by 'The Moderators' here.

When new people post here, 'The Moderators' are frequently the first people that they interact with. I think they should hold themselves to a higher standard.

I'm biting my tongue VERY hard here, lied to by one of the moderators HERE???? BULL SHIT!! You need to back that up with evidence and proof, NOW! If you can't shut the fuck up!!

RussH

I will send it to you personally, but I will not post it here. It would likely result in at least one more of 'The Moderators' quitting.

You need to check yoself befo u reck yoself!!

I seriously doubt that any moderator, or any forum regular, would stoop to the level of signing you up for spam..i mean, for Christ's sake you have a HOTMAIL address..join the club, dude.

I was getting 2 to 4 SPAM messages a month before I started posting here. It tripled about two weeks after I got a harsh reply to one of my posts. I am now getting about 500K a week. Either someone signed me up, or some company started harvesting E-Mail addresses RIGHT after I started posting here.

I would appreciate this top-secret info as well. Send it to me at doctormidnight@wsu.edu or doctormidnight@hotmail.com

Or Microsoft sold their list..

Might want to check with other Hotmail users, but I'll bet you will find your experience regarding spam and Hotmail is not unique.

I doubt very much that any moderator signed you up for anything, and I don't believe any moderator intentionally lied on this site. We look for mistakes and catch them. Post it. We can handle it.

Oh, and it's really hard for me to find that "Microsoft bashing" caused such a horrid response. Ask a few regulars about my opinion of Microsoft, or Grogan's. We aren't exactly MS fans.

I never get spammed. Sometimes I sign up for some advertising for a download. I take it for awhile then I unsubscribe. I've been coming here for a couple of years. I even download newsgroups. They are some of the worst for harvesting emails. I get tons of computer newsletters also. You should take a hard look at your internet practises.
I use extensive email filters mostly for virus and trojans. I do get emails I never see, because they are permanently deleted as soon as they hit Outlook. I have set up all the internet zones to ask before opening. PC911 is one of one's I've put in my trusted site.
I can't imagine one of our moderators having the inclination or time to do that. LOL

Fine, send it to my rhbowler@hotmail.com account

RussH

ok i got your e mail, so where are the lies?????? And since your "evidence" is a post from this forum, i think you should post it here as it is open for all to see anyway.

as far as "Nice responses guys, can you try to respond without insults and cuss words?"

No, not when i'm pissed, and i AM pissed at your BS accusation.

RussH

http://www.pcnineoneone.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=35771&forum=computer


Nobody even responded to your post. Probably because they were ignoring you. Just like everyone else is going to do from now on. Your evidence sucks, I would rather have OJ as legal counsel.

Some people can't see the forest for the trees.

My,doctormidnight, how great minds think alike!

Walter A Robertson

Attachment #1, (gif file)

SPAM is a plague for everybody, and has gotten worse recently. You have not been singled out, just merely swept up with the rest of the online community.

JP

TerryT,

Did an institution close down and release a bunch of folks recently??

PC911 does not pass on email address of our forum members. The email addresses for forum members are protected, so that the spammers cannot come in here and harvest them.

There are many ways that spammers get email addresses. It's possible that you posted to another forum that does not protect it's user's email addressess. It's possible that you started posting to a news group and used a real email address and didn't bother to "munge" it. You may left your email address on a untrustworthy website. I can on and on as to "how" the spammers found you.

Once a spammer gets your address, they then sell your lists to other spammers, and so on.

I get spam sent to an eamail address that is only used to send email to my family and a few friends. It's a word, followed by numbers, but it's not my name. Spammers use a technique called "dictionary spamming." For example, lets say that catlover is a valid address on one ISP. The spammers then try catlover at aol, earthlink, AT&T, etc. They may also try catlover1 or catlover25, etc.

marti

>I have been mildly flamed by 'The Moderators' for just posting some minor Microsoft bashing.

Hey Terry, bashing microsoft is my job. lol

But that is getting old hat fast, by now everyone knows what the monopolist is up to, and the fact that it will not change for the better anytime soon.

That being said, and the events of the last few days or so in this forum, even I'm going to give it a rest.

If you want the job you are welcome to it.

"I also recommended this forum to a couple of friends because another forum declined and I could not answer their questions. They were berated and pretty much lied to by 'The Moderators' here."

That is just plain Silly, I think they went to the wrong forum. As far as the junk mail thing, Tell your friends to stop signing up for anything anywhere on the net using their email. ANYTIME you use your email to sign up for ANYTHING such as Yahoo,AOL IM,MSN etc you WILL receive spam.

THE WORST THING TO DO is too click on any link in your spam saying you want to stop it. ALL that does is tell the spamers you have a valid email. The email will stop from that one, but you will get TEN more from the ones they sold it to.

ALSO never never respond to or get your email address into these "Microsoft is giving 250.00 or whatever for forwarding this email to 10 of your friends" ALL that is an email collecting ploy and all the emails in such forwarded messages are used by spamers."

IGNORANCE of the WEB is how they and you got spam. NOT BECAUSE OF ANYBODY from PC911. This place is THE most UP and UP place I have ever know ANYWHERE in the 8 years I been surfing this monster web.
I remember the day when MONEY and WEB meant 2 totally different things. NOW WEB=$$$$$$$.....sad.

Terry,

I am one of the few moderators who tends to be pro Microsoft. I don't think I've ever flamed you for bashing Microsoft unless you consider any disagreement to be a flame. If I've done so, send me an email or post the specifics.

You say that moderators have lied to your friends. It is entirely possible that moderators have posted information that you or your friends didn't think was correct. In fact, information might have been posted that was not correct. However, the word lie suggests that a moderator knew they were posting incorrect information and did so anyway. I'm very curious how you determined that.

On the issue of berating your friends, I'd have to see the posts. If the example referenced in this thread is what you're talking about, I'd have to disagree but I'll concede that if you consider that level of disagreement to constitute "berating" then it probably does happen from time to time.

You guy. "Hardware Freek".
I actually had some sympathy for your view at the start, as I tend to for the underdog in any argument, but the more I read this whole saga, and your posts, the more you come across as a pompous self-righteous holier than thou prick.
I know your type, Mr concerned who lives at no.1 "Moral highground Street, PIOUSVILLE.." who has nothing better to do than sit around looking for the slightest thing to be offended at. Ive had my share of jip in this forum, usually brought about by me myself I, but I took the criticism, went away for a while and didn't try to engage in a destructive war of attrition with the moderators, because I knew that this was THEIR territory, THEIR workplace, THEIR home, and I came here like Randall said as a visitor, not a cuckoo trying to throw them out of the nest. I went away to lick the wounds, lie in the basket, reflect on things said to me, try to make changes in the way I did things. But YOU, you are still here, still rubbing salt into the wound, and WORSE of all, now acting like some kind of crusader on our behalf who we should all be grateful to, for "SACRIFICING " yourself for our interests. It seems a bit cliche that the Christian is actually trying to play at being Christ.
The more I hear you and see your smug gizzard, the more Grogans words sound sweet and apt. The faact you are still here makes me assume that you are one of those perverse souls who thrives on being disliked and unpopular.
Have the decency to absent yourself, at least til Grogan feels ready to return. If you stay, I dont see you getting much
respect or attention in here now. I have been in a similar place to you, but by this point, I had withdrawn to allow the house to heal its spirit. You should really do the same.

Very good Joe. My observations exactly. This whole thing could have blown over very quickly, but Hardware Freak ( IMO ) is just one of those pompous , self-rightous little people who likes to hear the bleating of his own voice. I couldn't have said it better. He's an instigater and kept at it till he got the response he wanted.

Has Grogan been getting a little testy lately....I mean, testier than usual. Maybe... but there could be many valid reasons for it. Not the least of which is that if you keep poking a dog with a stick it's gonna bite your sorry ass!!. This point on the outside seems to be lost on HF, but I'm betting it's not. I think he knows perfectly well what he's doing and gets his " Jollies " pressing other people's buttons.

As Alex said. The moderators put up with a lot of S**T and little thanks ( Much more so lately do to Trolling ). We don't need Trolls like HF. And yes HF, I do consider you a Troll. Not your morals or your ideals, but you personally because of the way you have presented yourself.

re: Backflip, je suis d,accord.